Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 08-15-2011, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Dot

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Dot

They didn't have much of a choice in the beginning, since the Jews kept to themselveswere isolated and ghettoized by zealous, often economically motivated, christians. Even today the Hasidic and Lubavitchers and the such are still a closed off society, somewhat like the Amish, the closed brethren, and the weirder christian cults. If you go against what the rebsthe religious authorities teach you are ostricized by the community.

Fixed.

Yep, I agree there are wierd cults everywhere. And hopefully people will start to see that Rabbinic Talmudist Judaism is just as wierd. It's like Roman Catholicism, the rabbi's are the popes of their community.

Weird is the belief in a god who couldn't find a more reasonable way of forgiving people than sending some guy to take away the guilt of those who god couldn't forgive by dying in their stead, so god has fucked up by creating a dysfunctional system and cannot take responsibility for the errors of the creation, passing the buck onto the created. Condoning such lunacy will only lead to more weirdness. And you play the us-and-them game of my-religion-is-better-than-theirs. That explains why you aren't prepared to understand Numbers 31:17-18 for what it indicates.

Little Dot · 08-15-2011, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Little D

I don't think you are getting spin's point. The depravity is already in the Torah. This is the central point of Marcionitism (and Islam for that matter). The religious revelation is not yet perfect.

The Jews themselves - strangely - have a similar conception with the twofold revelation at Sinai and Horeb. The Israelites were only capable of apprehending the lower manifestation of the godhead, the lower, fleshly covenant.

You seem to imply that the 'Old Testament' couldn't have sanctioned this sort of behavior.

It most certainly did.

There are some hard things to understand in the Bible. Num.31 is the vengeance against the Midianites' seduction of Israel. Chapter 25 tells how Phinehas killed an Israelite for bringing a Midianite woman into the camp. Deut.21:10-14 expressly says if they saw a beautiful woman among the captives, the Israelite warriors could marry her. If they had to marry an adult woman, I refuse to believe that God would allow an adult to have sex with a child, even if he was a priest

spin · 08-15-2011, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Dot

There are some hard things to understand in the Bible. Num.31 is the vengeance against the Midianites' seduction of Israel. Chapter 25 tells how Phinehas killed an Israelite for bringing a Midianite woman into the camp. Deut.21:10-14 expressly says if they saw a beautiful woman among the captives, the Israelite warriors could marry her. If they had to marry an adult woman, I refuse to believe that God would allow an adult to have sex with a child, even if he was a priest

Willful. Your refusal to believe is based on your desires. The text makes clear its meaning. All the men were killed in battle, so kill the little boys and kill the females who are likely to have had sex, leaving the little girls who haven't had sex "for yourselves".

JoeWallack · 08-16-2011, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Dot

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Fixed.

Yep, I agree there are wierd cults everywhere. And hopefully people will start to see that Rabbinic Talmudist Judaism is just as wierd. It's like Roman Catholicism, the rabbi's are the popes of their community.

JW:
Okay, so now you are saying that Christians follow the Talmud. This reminds me of those Woody Allen logic circles:

A: The Greeks were men.

B: The Greeks were homosexuals.

C: Christians are men.

D: Christians are homosexual?

Besides, there's plenty of homosexual activity in the Christian Bible to be more concerned about:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=John_13

[Not that there's anything wrong with that]

Quote:

John 13:27 And after the soap, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, What thou doest, do quickly.

[/Not that there's anything wrong with that]

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

semiopen · 08-16-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Dot

...

Get off your soap box and save your supposed consternation for the Talmud supporters. Rabbinic Judaism is not the religion of the Old Testament. I defy you to show me where the Old Testament says it's ok to rape children

...

The Talmud does not say that it's okay to rape children. You can read a rational discussion here.

I agree that the Talmud doesn't say this, but don't regard the link as a rational discussion.

The Talmud says some crazy shit, the link claims that the discussion is about a dowry for a virgin where somebody less than three years old is one by default. Maybe, however this interpretation has to be debatable to say the least. Putting some hebrew script on a web page and saying this shit is all normal is not rational as such.

The image of women in the Talmud and medrashim

Discusses some issues relating to women.

Quote:

...the Halachic rulings of today's rabbinical courts are still subjected to the Talmud, an outdated text which causes rabbis to use most of their intellectual energy to suit the Talmudic text to the renewed spirit of our days. They do not state straight out, bravely, with intellectual honesty, that the Talmud is not relevant at all.

Seems to frame the debate.

While anti-semites may use the Talmud to paint a false picture of Judaism, the fact is that the Talmud should be irrelevant to normal Jewish life.

Just to be in the spirit of the thread, there is also a serious problem with child abuse in the

Frum (ultra orthodox) community.

Rabbis & Crime

The guy at FailedMessiah is obsessive at looking into this.

This shit is all related to too much respect given by Jews to Rabbis and the reason for this misplaced respect is the position the Talmud occupies in the community.

Little Dot · 08-16-2011, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Dot

There are some hard things to understand in the Bible. Num.31 is the vengeance against the Midianites' seduction of Israel. Chapter 25 tells how Phinehas killed an Israelite for bringing a Midianite woman into the camp. Deut.21:10-14 expressly says if they saw a beautiful woman among the captives, the Israelite warriors could marry her. If they had to marry an adult woman, I refuse to believe that God would allow an adult to have sex with a child, even if he was a priest

Willful. Your refusal to believe is based on your desires. The text makes clear its meaning. All the men were killed in battle, so kill the little boys and kill the females who are likely to have had sex, leaving the little girls who haven't had sex "for yourselves".

OH Pleeeeeeeeeeze, It was a statute that all would share in the spoils of war, those that went to war and those that stayed behind (1Sam.30:24).

The Israelite men had commited whoredom by having sex with the daughters of Moab. Then an Israelite man brings a Midianite woman into the camp and Phinehas chases them down, finds them in a tent (having sex no doubt), and kills them both.

So we have Phinehas killing a fellow Israelite for having anything to do sexually with a Midiante woman, YET, it would be alright for a priest to have anything to do with a Midianite (woman child) sexually? COME ON !

Leviticus 21:13,14 shows that a priest had to marry a virgin of his own people. There is every possiblity that the women children (Num.31:18), became propselytes but at what age a female was thought to be a woman old enought to marry, I don't have a clue.

Toto · 08-16-2011, 11:26 AM

Here's more on your idol Michael Hoffman, from the Southern Poverty Law Center:

LEGION OF ST. LOUIS/IHS PRESS

Quote:

John Sharpe Jr ... runs both the Legion of St. Louis (LSL) and IHS Press -- two of the most nakedly anti-Semitic organizations in the entire radical traditionalist Catholic pantheon. LSL explicitly pledges in its vision statement to unite Catholic men around the teachings of Father Denis Fahey and other anti-Semites, particularly Hilaire Beloc, author of the anti-Semitic book The Jews. It calls for the creation of self-contained communities of Catholic "militants" who intend "to wage ... real ideological and political war" against their enemies, "the Judeo-Masonic tendencies of the modern social order." LSL's bulletin brims with anti-Semitic materials from the likes of Ernst Zundel, the neo-Nazi author of The Hitler We Loved and Why who is now in prison in Germany for Holocaust denial, and the American Free Press, a newspaper run by veteran American anti-Semite Willis Carto. Sharpe blames the 9/11 attacks not on Al Qaeda, but on "Judeo-Masonry." "The temporal power that the Jews have achieved since … 1789 is both pervasive and relatively unchallenged," he writes. "[T]he current and historical mortal enemy of Christian civilization is Judeo-Masonry." At the 2006 conference of American Renaissance, a racist magazine specializing in theories of race and intelligence, Sharpe sold his two-volume set Neo-CONNED!, which has several articles by racists and anti-Semites. LSL also serves as the U.S. distributor for Britain's St. George Educational Trust, which sells a catalogue of anti-Semitic books including works by the late "radio priest" Charles Coughlin, Holocaust denier Michael Hoffman's Strange Gods of Judaism and Henry Ford's The International Jew. The trust's board includes convicted Italian terrorist Roberto Fiore, who Sharpe has described as a close personal friend, Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) priest Michael Crowdy, and other hard-liners. Sharpe also has written articles for The Angelus, published by SSPX, including "Judaism and the Vatican," which blames Jews for three centuries of political liberalism. . . .

Extremists cheer shuttle disaster (2003)

Quote:

Holocaust denier Michael Hoffman took the location of the destruction as a sign of good things to come. "The symbolism of the Israeli 'combat air force' pilot blowing up in the approximate vicinity of Palestine, Texas, requires no embellishment or explications," Hoffman wrote. "Rarely does what we might call 'the hand of God' move so dramatically in world affairs."

And from Rense.com

Quote:

Born in 1954, New York, Hoffman is an American journalist, novelist writer and historical revisionist who introduces himself as a conspiracy theorist and holocaust denier. He doesn't deny the incidence of Holocaust as a historical fact; however, he raises doubts regarding the extent and degree of it as described by the mainstream historians. Hoffman runs the website RevisionistHistory.org

. . .

Michael Hoffman: The White House at the policy level is not embracing a mystical vision of the Israeli imperium, rather President Obama and his inner circle are aware that the U.S. Congress is Israeli-occupied territory, along with the U.S. media, therefore they are driven to support the Israelis by the application of raw political and media power.

There is a deeper level of function behind the U.S. government however, which we call the "Cryptocracy" and which has a masonic orientation that came to the fore in the West during the Renaissance via the neo-Platonists within the Catholic Church, namely Ficino, Mirandola, Reuchlin, who were deeply imbued with the concepts of the rabbinic Kabbalah. In terms of the western secret societies, support for Zionism's mystical pretensions is high and the support continues to be exerted covertly.

:Cheeky:

This guy is a self parody.

mrsonic · 08-16-2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

There is every possiblity that the women children (Num.31:18), became propselytes

there is every possibility that the 30 thousand stolen virgins became concubines.were the soldiers who took the virgin girls all priests?

stephan huller · 08-16-2011, 12:28 PM

semiopen,

Quote:

the fact is that the Talmud should be irrelevant to normal Jewish life.

Really? By what standards do you say this? They've been doing things for hundreds of centuries according to this established authority. How are they supposed to decide legal issues now. Dice? Picking lots? Listening to mountainman?

semiopen · 08-16-2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

semiopen,

Quote:

the fact is that the Talmud should be irrelevant to normal Jewish life.

Really? By what standards do you say this? They've been doing things for hundreds of centuries according to this established authority. How are they supposed to decide legal issues now. Dice? Picking lots? Listening to mountainman?

I think you are joking Stephan but

I was just quoting my heroes at Daat Emet.

If you consider the history:

animosity it has contributed to,
entrenchment of the Rabbinic infrastructure,
meshugana laws,
perverted sense of history,
etc. etc.

is it so terrible to suggest that it has limited practical value?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.