Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-31-2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Michael Servetus (aka Miguel Serveto) is surely one of the most remarkable men of history, though he is largely unknown in general circles. He was born in Spain in 1511 and died in 1553, at age 42, burnt at the stake as a heretic by John Calvin’s Geneva Council. He was a brilliant scientist and his field was primarily medicine, but it was his theological views that led to his universal condemnation by both Catholics and Protestants. Servetus rejected the doctrine of the Trinity, and although he maintained belief in the virgin birth, he denied that Jesus was God. He was fluent in Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, and in his primary work, De trinitatis erroribus (”On the Errors of the Trinity”), he ably argued that the Bible itself, in neither Old Testament nor New Testament, supported the subsequent Trinitarian notion of Jesus as God.

There is a bit of buzz on the Internet these days, among Christian evangelical circles, regarding a modern writer who calls himself “Servetus the Evangelical,” who has penned a new book titled The Restitution of Jesus Christ. The author, who has chosen to remain anonymous, is apparently a well-known Evangelical Christian. He plans to divulge his true identity on September 29, 2011, the 500th anniversary of Servetus’ birth. You can visit his website at servetustheevangelist.com, where you can read excerpts of the book, purchase the whole, or try your hand at guessing the author’s identity based on clues posted on the first of each month.

From The Restitution of Jesus Christ

Quote:

The Restitution of Jesus Christ (2008) may be the most formidable, comprehensive, well-researched, biblically in-depth book to ever challenge the church dogma that Jesus is God. Yet it affirms all other major church teachings about Jesus, including his virgin birth, sinlessness, miracles, atonement, resurrection, ascension, heavenly exaltation, and future return to establish his earthly kingdom. This book is based on a conservative view of the inspiration of the Bible. So, it affirms the historical integrity of its four gospels. They tell almost all we know about Jesus of Nazareth.

avi · 08-31-2009, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto, quoting from James Tabor's blog

Michael Servetus (aka Miguel Serveto) is surely one of the most remarkable men of history, though he is largely unknown in general circles. He was born in Spain in 1511 and died in 1553, at age 42, burnt at the stake as a heretic by John Calvin’s Geneva Council

1. Thank you for this post.
2. I had mentioned a couple of points about Servetus in the recent thread on Westcott/Hort.
a. Servetus was both a renowned physician, and Anatomist, and the first European to discover the pulmonary circulation...He taught at University of Paris.
b. He was also opposed to infant baptism,
c. His antitrinitarian views were PUBLISHED, not just uttered in back rooms, consequently:
d. The Spanish Inquisition targeted him for death as a heretic, by burning at the stake. However, before the Catholics could lay a hand on him, the Protestants murdered him, in the same fashion.

Regardless of his delusional faith in Christianity, he remains one of my heroes....

Steven Avery · 09-01-2009, 01:20 AM

Hi Folks,

Two good posts. Yes, I noticed James Tabor put this up the other day and considered a thread here, figured it would get noticed quickly. Although Tabor's writings and views do not seem close to Michael Servetus the blog was interesting, including the whole thing about an evangelical doing a secret Servetus thing for the 500 year birthday.

The point that infant baptism was also an issue is normally overlooked, especially as a lot of the Calvinists today are, quite understandably, not believers in infant baptism. The John Calvin defenders like to offer a somewhat sanitized version of events, if you want to learn about the history it is good to go past the screeds and a bit closer to the books that are trying more to rely on primary sources.

I'm not sure, I think the Biblical Unitarians (and others, including James Tabor) may over-simplify the Michael Servetus view on the Deity of Messiah, seeking to impose on him their own views. If anyone has a good resource on, eg. the Servetus exegesis of verses like 1 Timothy 3:16, it might be easier to see his actual views.

As an example, the book: Did Calvin Murder Servetus? (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Stanford Rives says that the Deity of Messiah, which Rives gives as "Jesus is God", was in fact a belief of Michael Servetus, that one difference could be seen as "the man-Jesus had not existed as Son of God prior to his birth". (p. 266) and the rejection of the "Athanasian Creed" formulations.

However, just as the Biblical Unitarians may be co-opting, Rives may be oversimplifying.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Toto · 09-01-2009, 07:55 AM

The first chapter of Did Calvin Murder Servetus? can be read from this link

No Robots · 09-01-2009, 09:26 AM

It seems clear that many Christians are moving toward the position that Christ was a man, not a god. This means that Trinitarians and mythicists face a diminishing audience for their idea that Jesus is god.

dog-on · 09-02-2009, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

It seems clear that many Christians are moving toward the position that Christ was a man, not a god. This means that Trinitarians and mythicists face a diminishing audience for their idea that Jesus is god.

I suppose that this will include making up new stuff.

Hell, it's their book. Let them rewrite it as much as they want.

Steven Avery · 09-02-2009, 03:48 AM

Hi Folks,

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots9

It seems clear that many Christians are moving toward the position that Christ was a man

Servetus clearly did not believe that Jesus was simply a normal man of birth from human mother and father. As pointed out above, the virgin birth was affirmed by Servetus as well as the miracles, and it is probably safe to say, his divine nature "God was manifest in the flesh .." .

Whether this is true for the modern-day Servetus on the Net, I am not sure, his material would have to be read. Folks with an ebionite style perspective will try to coopt the views of Servetus incorrection.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

No Robots · 09-02-2009, 08:11 AM

If Christianity is to become what it wants to be, it must renounce the desire to know anything that pure Judaism in Christ neither knows nor wishes to know: it must renounce symbols, dogmas, articles of faith, liturgy, worship; it must want to know nothing of creation, the Fall, redemption and justification, heaven and hell, the incarnation of God, the Three Persons of the Godhead, the single Personality of God; it must not hold on to a single item of religion's superstition. If Christianity is to come about, Christ must be the Master, revealing to the heathen that they are but men (Ps. 9:21).--Constantin Brunner, Our Christ.

Yellum Notnef · 09-02-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

If Christianity is to become what it wants to be, it must renounce the desire to know anything that pure Judaism in Christ neither knows nor wishes to know: it must renounce symbols, dogmas, articles of faith, liturgy, worship; it must want to know nothing of creation, the Fall, redemption and justification, heaven and hell, the incarnation of God, the Three Persons of the Godhead, the single Personality of God; it must not hold on to a single item of religion's superstition. If Christianity is to come about, Christ must be the Master, revealing to the heathen that they are but men (Ps. 9:21).--Constantin Brunner, Our Christ.

I'd love to see you and Avery debate this idea.

No Robots · 09-02-2009, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenton Mulley

I'd love to see you and Avery debate this idea.

Me, too. The so-called messianic Jews are just fundies trying to preserve Trinitarianism by coating it with a patina of Hebonics.

I do respect, though, many of the things that Avery has to say by way of criticism of the ultra-skeptics around here. In the end, I have a greater affinity for him than for them.

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09-01-2009, 01:20 AM	#3
Steven Avery Banned Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 2,293	Hi Folks, Two good posts. Yes, I noticed James Tabor put this up the other day and considered a thread here, figured it would get noticed quickly. Although Tabor's writings and views do not seem close to Michael Servetus the blog was interesting, including the whole thing about an evangelical doing a secret Servetus thing for the 500 year birthday. The point that infant baptism was also an issue is normally overlooked, especially as a lot of the Calvinists today are, quite understandably, not believers in infant baptism. The John Calvin defenders like to offer a somewhat sanitized version of events, if you want to learn about the history it is good to go past the screeds and a bit closer to the books that are trying more to rely on primary sources. I'm not sure, I think the Biblical Unitarians (and others, including James Tabor) may over-simplify the Michael Servetus view on the Deity of Messiah, seeking to impose on him their own views. If anyone has a good resource on, eg. the Servetus exegesis of verses like 1 Timothy 3:16, it might be easier to see his actual views. As an example, the book: Did Calvin Murder Servetus? (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Stanford Rives says that the Deity of Messiah, which Rives gives as "Jesus is God", was in fact a belief of Michael Servetus, that one difference could be seen as "the man-Jesus had not existed as Son of God prior to his birth". (p. 266) and the rejection of the "Athanasian Creed" formulations. However, just as the Biblical Unitarians may be co-opting, Rives may be oversimplifying. Shalom, Steven Avery

09-01-2009, 07:55 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The first chapter of Did Calvin Murder Servetus? can be read from this link

09-01-2009, 09:26 AM	#5
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	It seems clear that many Christians are moving toward the position that Christ was a man, not a god. This means that Trinitarians and mythicists face a diminishing audience for their idea that Jesus is god.

09-02-2009, 08:11 AM	#8
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	If Christianity is to become what it wants to be, it must renounce the desire to know anything that pure Judaism in Christ neither knows nor wishes to know: it must renounce symbols, dogmas, articles of faith, liturgy, worship; it must want to know nothing of creation, the Fall, redemption and justification, heaven and hell, the incarnation of God, the Three Persons of the Godhead, the single Personality of God; it must not hold on to a single item of religion's superstition. If Christianity is to come about, Christ must be the Master, revealing to the heathen that they are but men (Ps. 9:21).--Constantin Brunner, Our Christ.

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