premjan

Herding is not necessarily nondestructive as mass introduction of single species causes close cropping of grasslands, erosion of topsoil and desertification (e.g. sheep in Iceland).

Also desire for dominance arises from the mistaken notion that man is separate from nature.

Sven

Take this up with Einstein.

1) That's not a logical conclusion. It's possible that the right conditions exist somewhere but nevertheless life does not form.
2) You are ware that both the "right conditions [for] life" and "life" should be qualified with "as we know it"?

The question then could be asked if there was an Initiator...

Mutations are not at all inconsistent with Darwin's theory. And punctuated equilibria are not either. Nice strawman.

Bullshit. That's not the definition of neutral and negative mutations at all. It's all about reproductive success.
More strawmen.

And due to many other reason. One important factor is that copying the DNA is a chemical process, and chemical reaction always have side reactions.

And where exactly is the line between "early hominds" and the primates before them?

Funny that there's no hint at all in evolution at it being directed...

Exercise in creative interpretation, anyone?

No.

Any environmentalist who claims things like this is an idiot. It's close to 100% certain that humankind will greatly suffer from changes to the environment, but they won't kill off the human race.

At nearly every point.

Every time I read such stretched interpretations of an ancient text written by Iron Age goat herders, I have to think "If there's an omnipotent being out there, why on Earth did he leave us with such a stupid text that adherents of him have to invent even more stupid interpretations and make him look even more silly?"
Does this answer your question?

spin

Bad christian translation. Here is a literal translation:

At the beginning of god's creating of the heavens and the earth -- the earth was chaotic and empty and darkness over the face of the deep and the wind of god hovered over the face of the waters --, god said, "let there be light"...

Not very nice English, so

At the beginning when god created the heavens and the earth, when the earth was chaotic and empty, when darkness was over the face of the deep and the wind of god hovered over the waters, god said, "let there be light"...

The events in Gen 1:1-2 have nothing to do with a big bang. The material was already there, just needing to be put into order. It was not a singularity. Sun, moon and stars were created on day four, after the earth.


spin

Chaupoline

All of this is an exercise in creative interpretation. However, there is a cultivator theme throughout the Old and New Testament. Even if you don't want to believe in God, you can at least see that Natural Selection is a cultivator of life.

From the Big Bang to the beginning of life on this planet, everything has been a series of actions that can all be traced to the Initial Action. I believe that there is a pattern within these series of subsequent actions and when I speak of the pattern I refer to it as the Intentions of the Initiator or the Intentions of God. All science is based on the belief in that pattern.

Darwin originally proposed a system of gradualism in his Theory of Evolution. Mutations and Punctuated Equilibria do not disprove evolution, but it is not the same thing as what Darwin proposed.

This is my definition then of neutral and negative mutations. If the mutation would kill the organism in any natural environment the mutation is negative. Otherwise, the mutation is neutral. The reason why I don't believe in the classification of a positive mutation is because there isn't one standard environment that never changes on the planet. Therefore you can't refer to a mutation as positive just because the set of variables in that one specific environment benefits the organism, but if it were in a diffrent climate that the same mutation harms the organism it would be considered negative. I just believe that there should be a classification that is consistent regardless of the environment.

If Original sin is the manufacture of an artificial environment and not to act within Natural Selection, then global warming is caused by human actions and is not a natural process that occurs because of the planet. That is one effect of Original sin. Another is the destruction of bio-diversity in evolutionary hotspots such as the Amazon rainforests due to humans cutting down the trees. Another is the creation of the All American Canal which prevents water from entering into the aquifers that feed into Northern Mexico so that America doesn't lose water on its way to California.

Read between the lines.

Sven

My teachers warned me to read things into a text which are not there. Yours apparently not.

I don't "want" to believe in a god the same way I don't "want" to believe in Santa. Please be more careful in attributing motives to others.

And natural selection is a cultivator of life and of death. Given that >99% of all species which ever lived died out, it's rather the latter.

By calling it "Initial Action", you are defining an initial actor into existance. Not very persuasive.

Only that the possibility of miracles destroy all hope in any pattern existing. This problem can only be resolved if you posit a deist-sort god. Or a method to predict miracles - which renders them non-miraculous.

PE is still gradual. There are no "jumps" in PE, it's only that the speed of evolution varies.

Very few of mutations of this kind happen.

Since "neutral mutation" is a term already defined differently, you should use another term. Otherwise you'll just continue to confuse people.

There are environments which are constant for 100s of millions of years. Heck, even environments which are constant for only 1000 years are "constant" relative to the speed of evolution.

:huh: That's basic knowledge of Evolution: "beneficial" always means "beneficial with respect to the environment". Nobody ever claimed that mutations which are beneficial in every environment even exist! That's why I called you up on a strawman!
That's an important mechanism of evolution: Part of a population moves to a different environment, gets isolated from the other part and develops new mutations which are beneficial in the new environment.

It's of no use.

We don't need original sin to see that man is responsible for global warming. And original sin does not help us at all to explain the tsunami two years ago. In other words: original sin isn't an explanation at all.

Again: original sin is simply unnecessary to explain this.

See above. It's a big no-no to invent things which are not in the text.

Chaupoline

It is in the text, it just is not traditionally interpreted in this way.

Yes, and when humanity domesticated plants and animals they too removed and destroyed the plants and animals that did not possess the traits that they were looking for.

By calling it the Initial Action, I am defining a pattern of actions which are capable of being traced back to its initial source.

A miracle is something that does not follow the pattern of the initial action of this universe. If you can not trace the action back to the initial action it is a miracle. However, at this time we do not possess the ability or knowledge to trace all actions back to the initial action. Therefore, we are unable to justify whether an action is a miracle or simply a coincidence. Besides, miracles are claimed by people that want to see miracles. This can be for self-inspiration or to inspire others to believe as they do.

The Story of Adam and Eve and the Original sin is about how humanity came to see itself as separate from the pattern. In defiance of the pattern, humanity attempted to remake the world to favor humanity. This began with the cultivation of plants and animals, then the building of cities and eventually ended up with the elites in society cultivating the human population. The priesthood has stated that the pattern favors humanity and the elites in society especially. This is simply untrue. The tsunami from a few years ago is simply a part of the pattern. It is a reminder that humanity is not separate from the pattern, regardless of how much we want to believe otherwise.

Loomis

You don't believe that mankind was created as an afterthought as one of the authors of Genesis alluded to. You even said so yourself: See?Where does Genesis say that “Adam evolved from the dust of the earth as does all life?”

Where does Genesis say that “the creation of Adam represents the evolution of early hominids?”

premjan

Humanity is indeed not separate from the pattern - ironically I would say that it is religion that promotes this sense of separation.

Sven

Well, you can claim this as often as you want, the fact remains that your "interpretation" is just what you think to know about the modern world and urgently want to have in a book written 2000 years ago by ignorant iron age goat herders. Need I say more? For instance that hundreds of years of biblical scholarship managed to miss your interpretation? Apparently your intellect far suceeds theirs.

For example a quantum fluctuation. I see.

So you obviously agree that miracles destroy all hope of any patterns existing.

You mean like people being resurrected?

Oh, so just to remind us that we have forgotten this, about 1 million people had (and still has) to suffer greatly? There certainly was no other means to achieve this... :banghead:

Chaupoline

The Big Bang is the Initial Action of N (Natural world). It is significant because it is the beginning of Time and Space as we perceive it. Quantum fluctuations, as you have stated, disprove though that everything can be traced back to the IA of N or simply N. Quantum fluctuations prove that there is a bigger pattern than simply all the subsequent actions of N. As such I would propose as well the Initial Action of S (Supernatural). The subsequent actions of S interact with N and are weaved into the pattern begun by N.

Miracles would fall into the pattern as the inter-woven actions of S.

There are now three cultivators which define the pattern: The initiator of N, The inter-woven actions of S, and now mankind. I would associate the tsunami with N.