jbernier

Peter,

Ordinarily I would take up such an opportunity in a moment. Unfortunately I am starting back to school in a couple weeks and do not want to make such a committment (particularly given that I am starting graduate school this fall; really unsure about workload, etc.). Thank you nonetheless.

Vorkosigan

Peter, why don't you write a review? I know from many interactions with you that you are fair, balanced, and insightful; moreover, several times you have pointed out issues with Doherty's thesis that have led me down several fruitful lines, and eventually to reject certain aspects of it and become agnostic about all of it. You're practically ideal.

I plan on writing a review, but not for a while longer. Not until next year, when I finish my website on Mark.

Vorkosigan

Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan,

The reason is that I think a lot would be expected of a "review" that I wrote, and I would want to live up to that ("review" in scare quotes because it would not be a first impressions or even the few-page scholarly blurb kind of review, and I did give my first impressions here). I would want to be thorough. That means that I have a lot of study to do, including study on the myriad of related subjects. For example, the question of the relationship of the Gospel of John to the Synoptics is important. I want to read a couple dozen articles on that which I have culled from bibliographies. But that is just a page or two in Doherty's book. So, I will not attempt a full treatment for a long time; instead, I will delve ever deeper into the specifics, in preparation.

Oh yes, and I will release it with Random House and make millions of dollars.

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan

But then first you'd have to change the title to An Atheist discovers the historical Jesus and Believes!. Then you could mint money. I have often thought about writing under a nom de plume for the Dark Side. The money is just so good....

jbernier

Already been done. It's called The Case for Christ.

Jonathan

Rick Sumner

People who would have this expectation are wholly unreasonable, entirely unfair, guilty of special pleading, and doubtlessly include me in their number.

It's tough at the top :notworthy

When should we expect to be able to pre-order? :thumbs:

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Answerer

What is the title again?

Ted Hoffman

Me too.
The atheist's belief in a HJ would not matter a damn thing to christians. You will have to believe in all the other trilogical stuff, divinity etc etc.

Long live Doherty! For making a thorough critique of his work a life-long undertaking.

Ted Hoffman

I forgot to add: you will also have to give your life to Jesus. Until then, you are of no much use to them; you can't inspire and you don't set a good example to the empty flocks seeking spiritual nourishment - you cant be invited to Turning Point, T.D. Jake's shows etc etc

guy_683930

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned in this forum is that Paul sometimes uses the term "jew" metaphorically. Paul sometimes uses dualities: e.g. "jew" vs. "gentile", "jew" vs. "greek", "slave" vs. "free", "women" vs. "men", "weak" vs. "strong". There are others too. This is used by Paul to disguise teachings about the two different levels of believers.
"psychic", simple believers: jew, slave, women, weak, ...
"pneumatic", mature believers: gentile, greek, free, men, strong, ...

An example in of using "jew" metaphorically:
Romans 2:28-29: "For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God."

A good example of using the term "gentile" metaphorically comes from the deutero-Pauline text Colossians.
Colossians 1:27: "To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."
Why is it the mystery of "Christ in you" given to "gentiles"? Because "gentiles" was a key word used by Paul and continued on in deutero-Paul to (sometimes) refer to the spiritual people in the church. Other writers continued on the metaphor (cf. Gospel of Phillip). The terms are sometimes used literally, sometimes used metaphorically, and sometimes both. Now let's look at the passage from 1 Thessalonians and see if it can be applied metaphorically.

"For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men,by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved--so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God's wrath has come upon them at last!"

He says they became imitators of the churches of God in Judea. But, that could be a way of referring to imitating the "jews" . He says a similar thing himself:
1 Corinthians 9:20: "To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews..."

It says that the "jews" killed Jesus. However, this does not sync with the gospel accounts first of all, and it contradicts other things Paul says. (1 Corinthians 2:8). So, this could be applied metaphorically. There are other examples of saying the simple believers by continuing being simple "kill" Jesus.

Hebrews 5:12-6:6: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God's word. You need milk, not solid food;for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child.But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.And this we will do if God permits.For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt."

You may say that this is reading too much into the letter. However, since it contradicts Paul, and he uses the terms "jew" and "gentile" metaphorically, it is at least a possible interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16.