Chris Weimer

I believe most angels were the kedoshim, or holy warriors who fought with the Israelites. I can't remember where, but there was a specific verse from Joshua which was quite explicit on this, and had something to do with covering your head, if I'm not mistaken, which was the source of the I Corinthians 11. The book I'm getting this from is Paul and Qumran.

Toto - or whoever - I still don't know how to make the amazon links set to IIDB, so you can change it to the proper link.

{to Infidelize an Amazon link -delete everything starting at the qid= and replace it with internetinfidels.}

Loomis

Why do we have to assume that there is going to be one ultimate definition of ANGEL that satisfies everything?

Isn’t it possible that angels are fictional creatures, and that the Bible authors who wrote about them did not share a common unified view of what an “angel� was?

I think so. Angels are like Martians from the various 50s science fiction movies. There is overlap, there is borrowing, and there are contradictions.

If you are genuinely interested in learning about this stuff you should allow for a condition where one Bible author’s definition of an angel is inconsistent with another Bible author’s definition. After all, this is fiction, angels are fictional creatures, and the authors made shit up as they went along.

Sorry if I sound too weird.

Loomis

When the Bible translators did their ‘Bible translating’ they translated the Hebrew word malakh as “angel.� But they translated the plural version malakhim as “messengers.�

Gosh. How come?

I’m no expert, but I think I understand why they did this. It looks to me like the expression Angel of the LORD actually means the messenger Yahweh. And if you read through Genesis and substitute “the messenger Yahweh� for “Angel of the LORD� you will see that the translation usually stands.

The only trouble is, of course, that the Believers believe that Yahweh is God Almighty. It is unfathomable and abhorrent for them to think that Yahweh was subordinate to another spirit creature. Nevertheless, I bet this was the case. I bet that (in earlier permutations of the stories) Yahweh was delivering messages from El.

If you google this “angel of the LORD� vs. Yahweh issue you will see that it is reasonably controversial.

Here’s an interesting site run by a believer. He recognizes that Yahweh and “the Angel of the LORD� are the same character.

http://www.ldolphin.org/angelL.html

Here are some choice quotes:

What I’m trying to say is: I think that the Bible translators invented the Angel of the LORD to conceal that fact that the original stories portrayed Yahweh as a messenger who delivered messages from El.

Chris Weimer

The Judges story (and the Jacob-wrestling story) sound more like it was YHWH, but merely as a manifestation of YHWH, and not a separate messenger.

Loomis

The Judges story calls Yahweh a messenger. It’s exceptional because the angel and Yahweh are trading lines and saying things that they shouldn't be saying.

Why would Gideon be concerned about seeing a messenger face to face?

Why would Yahweh reassure Gideon that he would not die for seeing a messenger?

It’s not enough to say that the messenger was a manifestation of Yahweh. An explanation for the sloppy editing is in order. It looks half-baked. The possibility that the angel was Yahweh in disguise brings nothing meaningful to the story, and is not presented in a way that we would expect if it were the author’s intention to convey that idea.

It looks tampered with. I wonder if the original story involved three characters: Gideon, “Yahweh the messenger,� and El (the god whose face could kill.)

Regarding the Jacob-wrestling story:

What was preventing Jacob from calling the place Peniyah? (Or something like that?)

It looks to me like Jacob was wrestling with El. Not Yahweh.

HaysooChreesto!

What I've always found interesting is that if God created angels during the creation week, then it took Lucifer and a full third of the rest of them to come up with the idea that God and Heaven weren't so great and rebelled within a day or two. And it only took them a few weeks to escape hell and get into the Garden of Eden.
My oldest teenage daughter is hard to manage but jeez, even I can control her better than God did his angels.

John A. Broussard

Your answer brings up a bunch of new questions.

As time went by, the nature of angels became very detailed. This is post scriptural, of course, but suddenly we have "choirs of angels" "guardian angels" "angels fighting devils" even names for the--Seraphim, Cherubim etc. Where did all that come from? Better yet, why was it necessary? I really don't expect you to answer that last question. My interest is to find out how early Christians justified this extraordinary elaboration on just a "messenger" notion.

Thanks--and no, you don't sound weird.

andrewcriddle

P46 is the earliest extant manuscript containing Hebrews. It is usually dated c 200 CE.

Andrew Criddle

Toto

I think you are asking a question that involves psychology, culture, mythology, and literature, and spans many centuries and at least three religions. (The Seraphim and Cherubim are Hebrew. Medieval Catholics developed notions of angels and argued over how many could dance on the head of a pin. The Muslims also have an extensive gallery of angels.)

I recommend tracking down an art exhibit The Invisible Made Visible or the coffee table book Some used copies are available on Amazon.

Clivedurdle

Any one want to discuss a specific created angel called Satan and how come he is so powerful God's son has to die to conquer him?