stephan huller

yes but we expect more out of you as you are a magister

stephan huller

so maybe the answer will be found in the Peshitta. still working on my phone let's go back to those original verses in luke

Luke 17.13 They lifted up their voices, saying, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!" et levaverunt vocem dicentes Iesu praeceptor miserere nostri The Greek here is: καὶ αὐτοὶ ἦραν φωνὴν λέγοντες· Ἰησοῦ ἐπιστάτα, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς. ἐπιστάτα as I am sure you know is from ἐπιστάτης. Here are the examples in Luke:Luke 5:5 N-VMS BIB: Σίμων εἶπεν Ἐπιστάτα δι' ὅλης NAS: and said, Master, we worked hard KJV: unto him, Master, we have toiled INT: Simon said Master through wholeLuke 8:24 N-VMS BIB: αὐτὸν λέγοντες Ἐπιστάτα ἐπιστάτα ἀπολλύμεθα NAS: Him up, saying, Master, Master, KJV: saying, Master, master, INT: him saying Master Master we are perishingLuke 8:45 N-VMS BIB: ὁ Πέτρος Ἐπιστάτα οἱ ὄχλοι NAS: said, Master, the people KJV: him said, Master, the multitude throng INT: Peter Master the peopleLuke 9:33 N-VMS BIB: τὸν Ἰησοῦν Ἐπιστάτα καλόν ἐστιν NAS: to Jesus, Master, it is good KJV: unto Jesus, Master, it is good INT: Jesus Master good it isLuke 9:49 N-VMS BIB: Ἰωάννης εἶπεν Ἐπιστάτα εἴδομέν τινα NAS: and said, Master, we saw KJV: answered and said, Master, we saw one INT: John said Master we saw someoneLuke 17:13 N-VMS BIB: λέγοντες Ἰησοῦ ἐπιστάτα ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς NAS: Jesus, Master, have mercy KJV: Jesus, Master, have mercy INT: saying Jesus Master have compassion on us

luke 8:24 has rabban "our lord" which seems more or less to be the consistent trend with the others from what i can see here standing in the lingerie dept. i don't see how this can be a translation of Ἐπιστάτα. but i may be distracted

stephan huller

That kurie, rabbi and didaskale were interchangeable translations of an underlying Aramaic could well be argued. But I wonder whether the original Greek (= Marcion) is now lost, that it said kurie throughout and that Aramaic and subsequent Greek retranslations have just muddied perhaps intentionally the rejection of kurios

Jeffrey Gibson

Distracted or not, I think the reason you "don't see how" Rabban could be a translation of Ἐπιστάτα is that you seem once again to be basing your sense of the semantic range of a word on an English translation of it and are unfamiliar with what Rabbam, when applied to teachers, signified. Have you consulted a lexicon to see?

Jeffrey

DCHindley

Folks,

From the info below, lurkers can judge for themselves whether Tertullian read "Praeceptor" at Luke 18:18, or "Magister" as is the case in the Vulgate. I believe that the only place in Luke where the Vulgate translates διδάσκαλε (didaskale, teacher) as Praeceptor is ch 21:7. Tertullian may have been thinking of 21:7

Book 4: Ch 36, sect 4: [4] Denique interrogatus ab illo quodam, Praeceptor optime, quid faciens vitam aeternam possidebo? de praeceptis creatoris an ea sciret, id est faceret, expostulavit, ad contestandum praeceptis creatoris vitam acquire sempiternam: cumque ille principaliora quaeque affirmasset observasse se ab adulescentia, Unum, inquit, tibi deest: omnia, quaecunque habes, vcnde et da pauperibus, et habebis thesaurum in caelo, et veni, sequere me. (Cf. Luke 18:18-23)


ANF Against Marcion Book 4 chapter 36 (p. 410): When afterwards “a certain man asked him, ‘Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’” (Jesus) inquired whether he knew (that is, in other words, whether he kept) the commandments of the Creator, in order to testify that it was by the Creator’s precepts that eternal life is acquired. Then, when he affirmed that from his youth up he had kept all the principal commandments, (Jesus) said to him: “One thing thou yet lackest: sell all that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” (Cf. Luke 18:18-23)

Luke	English (RSV)	Vulgate (Clementine)	GNT (Bibleworks 8 revision)
3:12	Tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?"	venerunt autem et publicani ut baptizarentur et dixerunt ad illum magister quid faciemus	(BGT Luk 3:12) ἦλθον δὲ καὶ τελῶναι βαπτισθῆναι καὶ εἶπαν πρὸς αὐτόν• διδάσκαλε, τί ποιήσωμεν;
5:5	And Simon answered, "Master, we toiled all night and took nothing! But at your word I will let down the nets."	Et respondens Simon, dixit illi: Praeceptor, per totam noctem laborantes nihil cepimus: in verbo autem tuo laxabo rete.	καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς Σίμων εἶπεν• ἐπιστάτα, δι᾽ ὅλης νυκτὸς κοπιάσαντες οὐδὲν ἐλάβομεν• ἐπὶ δὲ τῷ ῥήματί σου χαλάσω τὰ δίκτυα.
6:40	(RSV Luk 6:40) A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is fully taught will be like his [B]teacher.	(VUL Luk 6:40) non est discipulus super magistrum perfectus autem omnis erit sicut magister eius	(BGT Luk 6:40) οὐκ ἔστιν μαθητὴς ὑπὲρ τὸν διδάσκαλον•κατηρτισμένος δὲ πᾶς ἔσται ὡς ὁ διδάσκαλος αὐτοῦ.
7:40	And Jesus answering said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." And he answered, "What is it, Teacher?"	et respondens Iesus dixit ad illum Simon habeo tibi aliquid dicere at ille ait magister dic	καὶ ἀποκριθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόν• Σίμων, ἔχω σοί τι εἰπεῖν. ὁ δέ•διδάσκαλε, εἰπέ, φησίν.
8:24	And they went and woke him, saying, "Master, Master, we are perishing!" And he awoke and rebuked the wind and the raging waves; and they ceased, and there was a calm.	Accedentes autem suscitaverunt eum, dicentes: Praeceptor, perimus. At ille surgens, increpavit ventum, et tempestatem aquae, et cessavit: et facta est tranquillitas.	προσελθόντες δὲ διήγειραν αὐτὸν λέγοντες•ἐπιστάτα ἐπιστάτα, ἀπολλύμεθα. ὁ δὲ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ τῷ κλύδωνι τοῦ ὕδατος• καὶ ἐπαύσαντο καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη.
8:45	And Jesus said, "Who was it that touched me?" When all denied it, Peter said, "Master, the multitudes surround you and press upon you!"	Et ait Jesus: Quis est, qui me tetigit? Negantibus autem omnibus, dixit Petrus, et qui cum illo erant: Praeceptor, turbae te comprimunt, et affligunt, et dicis: Quis me tetigit?	καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς• τίς ὁ ἁψάμενός μου; ἀρνουμένων δὲ πάντων εἶπεν ὁ Πέτρος• ἐπιστάτα, οἱ ὄχλοι συνέχουσίν σε καὶ ἀποθλίβουσιν.
9:33	(RSV Luk 9:33) And as the men were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, Master, it is well that we are here; let us make three booths, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah" -- not knowing what he said.	Et factum est cum discederent ab illo, ait Petrus ad Jesum: Praeceptor, bonum est nos hic esse: et faciamus tria tabernacula, unum tibi, et unum Moysi, et unum Eliae: nesciens quid diceret.	καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ διαχωρίζεσθαι αὐτοὺς ἀπ᾽ αὐτοῦ εἶπεν ὁ Πέτρος πρὸς τὸν Ἰησοῦν•ἐπιστάτα, καλόν ἐστιν ἡμᾶς ὧδε εἶναι, καὶ ποιήσωμεν σκηνὰς τρεῖς, μίαν σοὶ καὶ μίαν Μωϋσεῖ καὶ μίαν Ἠλίᾳ, μὴ εἰδὼς ὃ λέγει.
9:38	And behold, a man from the crowd cried, "Teacher, I beg you to look upon my son, for he is my only child; (Luk 9:38 RSV)	et ecce vir de turba exclamavit dicens magister obsecro te respice in filium meum quia unicus est mihi	καὶ ἰδοὺ ἀνὴρ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄχλου ἐβόησεν έγων•διδάσκαλε, δέομαί σου ἐπιβλέψαι ἐπὶ τὸν υἱόν μου, ὅτι μονογενής μοί ἐστιν,
9:49	John answered, "Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us."	Respondens autem Joannes dixit: Praeceptor, vidimus quemdam in nomine tuo ejicientem daemonia, et prohibuimus eum: quia non sequitur nobiscum.	Ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ Ἰωάννης εἶπεν• ἐπιστάτα, εἴδομέν τινα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου ἐκβάλλοντα δαιμόνια καὶ ἐκωλύομεν αὐτόν, ὅτι οὐκ ἀκολουθεῖ μεθ᾽ ἡμῶν.
10:25	And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"	et ecce quidam legis peritus surrexit temptans illum et dicens magister quid faciendo vitam aeternam possidebo	Καὶ ἰδοὺ νομικός τις ἀνέστη ἐκπειράζων αὐτὸν λέγων• διδάσκαλε, τί ποιήσας ζωὴν αἰώνιον κληρονομήσω;
11:45	One of the lawyers answered him, "Teacher, in saying this you reproach us also."	respondens autem quidam ex legis peritis ait illi magister haec dicens etiam nobis contumeliam facis	Ἀποκριθεὶς δέ τις τῶν νομικῶν λέγει αὐτῷ• διδάσκαλε, ταῦτα λέγων καὶ ἡμᾶς ὑβρίζεις.
12:13	One of the multitude said to him, "Teacher, bid my brother divide the inheritance with me."	ait autem quidam ei de turba magister dic fratri meo ut dividat mecum hereditatem	Εἶπεν δέ τις ἐκ τοῦ ὄχλου αὐτῷ•διδάσκαλε, εἰπὲ τῷ ἀδελφῷ μου μερίσασθαι μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ τὴν κληρονομίαν.
17:13	and lifted up their voices and said, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us."	Et levaverunt vocem, dicentes: Jesu praeceptor, miserere nostri.	καὶ αὐτοὶ ἦραν φωνὴν λέγοντες• Ἰησοῦ ἐπιστάτα, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.
18:18	And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"	et interrogavit eum quidam princeps dicens magister bone quid faciens vitam aeternam possidebo	Καὶ ἐπηρώτησέν τις αὐτὸν ἄρχων λέγων•διδάσκαλε ἀγαθέ, τί ποιήσας ζωὴν αἰώνιον κληρονομήσω;
19:39	And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."	et quidam Pharisaeorum de turbis dixerunt ad illum magister increpa discipulos tuos	καί τινες τῶν Φαρισαίων ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄχλου εἶπαν πρὸς αὐτόν• διδάσκαλε, ἐπιτίμησον τοῖς μαθηταῖς σου.
20:21	They asked him, "Teacher, we know that you speak and teach rightly, and show no partiality, but truly teach the way of God.	et interrogaverunt illum dicentes magister scimus quia recte dicis et doces et non accipis personam sed in veritate viam Dei doces	καὶ ἐπηρώτησαν αὐτὸν λέγοντες•διδάσκαλε, οἴδαμεν ὅτι ὀρθῶς λέγεις καὶ διδάσκεις καὶ οὐ λαμβάνεις πρόσωπον, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπ᾽ ἀληθείας τὴν ὁδὸν τοῦ θεοῦ διδάσκεις•
20:28	and they asked him a question, saying, "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man must take the wife and raise up children for his brother.	dicentes magister Moses scripsit nobis si frater alicuius mortuus fuerit habens uxorem et hic sine filiis fuerit ut accipiat eam frater eius uxorem et suscitet semen fratri suo	λέγοντες•διδάσκαλε, Μωϋσῆς ἔγραψεν ἡμῖν, ἐάν τινος ἀδελφὸς ἀποθάνῃ ἔχων γυναῖκα, καὶ οὗτος ἄτεκνος ᾖ, ἵνα λάβῃ ὁ ἀδελφὸς αὐτοῦ τὴν γυναῖκα καὶ ἐξαναστήσῃ σπέρμα τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ.
20:39	And some of the scribes answered, "Teacher, you have spoken well."	respondentes autem quidam scribarum dixerunt magister bene dixisti	Ἀποκριθέντες δέ τινες τῶν γραμματέων εἶπαν• διδάσκαλε, καλῶς εἶπας.
21:7	And they asked him, "Teacher, when will this be, and what will be the sign when this is about to take place?"	Interrogaverunt autem illum, dicentes: Praeceptor, quando haec erunt, et quod signum cum fieri incipient?	Ἐπηρώτησαν δὲ αὐτὸν λέγοντες•διδάσκαλε, πότε οὖν ταῦτα ἔσται καὶ τί τὸ σημεῖον ὅταν μέλλῃ ταῦτα γίνεσθαι;
22:11	and tell the householder, `The Teacher says to you, Where is the guest room, where I am to eat the passover with my disciples?'	et dicetis patri familias domus dicit tibi magister ubi est diversorium ubi pascha cum discipulis meis manducem	καὶ ἐρεῖτε τῷ οἰκοδεσπότῃ τῆς οἰκίας• λέγει σοι ὁ διδάσκαλος• ποῦ ἐστιν τὸ κατάλυμα ὅπου τὸ πάσχα μετὰ τῶν μαθητῶν μου φάγω;

DCH

Jeffrey Gibson

I'm not sure what this shows other than what I already noted regarding Luke's use of the terms:

Jeffrey

stephan huller

Excellent David. This is so amazing. With respect to my friend Jeffrey's question. Now away from the sight of sixty year old women trying on skimpy underwear I will concede that John 20:16. Mark 10:51 provides a possible justification i.e. ραββουνι. Even though there it is translated = Διδάσκαλε in John. In later prayer ribbono shel olam which is abbreviated with rsh''o just as Irenaeus argues Adv Haer 2 that ysh''u is 'Lord of heaven and earth.'



Note that the acronym doesn't work in the Masoretic text יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶ֥רֶץ וְשָׁמָֽיִם׃ A deliberate anti-Christian transposition?

stephan huller

Wouldn't that be a strong argument for an Aramaic original behind the gospels?

stephan huller

Curious 'live' arrangement:



Like the Jewish Il Divo

stephan huller

Another fruitful discussion. Thanks for participating David and Jeffrey. Really mean that. That's what makes this forum great.