JoeWallack

JW:
I'm breaking IIDB Law by arguing on the same side as Spin but I am only doing it for the benefit of you Gentiles. The issue between Paul and the followers of Jesus is broader than you are indicating here. It's whether Gentiles can become Jews by following only Jewish Ethical Law and not also Jewish Ritual Law. Peter El-all say no but Paul says yes. The position of Judaism before, during and after as well as the Roman position was that if you did not follow the Law, you were not Jewish. This is the probable history. Judaism also believed before , during and after, that Gentiles could attain salvation by following Jewish Ethical Law. Not that it's needed but Paul makes a point of boasting (in his mind) that he is a devout Jew and than lumps himself together with Gentiles for all his conclusions. When we argued on the subject on what Paul's "Gospel" meant you seemed to accept that a basic difference between Paul and the Pillorers was whether Paul's Gentiles were Jewish. Clarification please.

Fer instance, circumcision. The Pillorers attitude is you don't have to be circumcised to be saved but you do have to be circumcised to be Jewish. Paul's attitude is circumcision profits you nothing.




Joseph

Amaleq13

I don't see how this contradicts my position nor how it agrees with spin's. Unless I am misunderstanding you, I have no problem with your extension of my position.

When we argued on the subject, I found your questions and statements to be increasingly obscure to the point where I had no idea what you were trying to ask or claim. I would describe the basic difference you seem to be referring to as Paul claiming that a complete conversion (ie full adherence to the Law) to Judaism was not required of gentile believers in Jesus Christ while his opponents felt otherwise.

Where do you find this differentiation?

Amaleq13

Insults like these and the vacuous comments which follow are precisely the sort of smoke and mirrors to which you retreated the last time. It utterly fails to lend any credibility to your position but I understand why you feel the need to resort to them.

I suggest you read Galatians without prejudice. Specifically, Galatians 2 and specifically the 2nd and 7th verses where his specification is explicit.

I've already answered the first question (repeatedly in the original thread) but I learned the answer by reading Galatians without prejudice.

This suggests you haven't been reading my posts closely enough. I certainly do not deny that Paul didn't mean it when he claimed his "good news" to the gentiles was obtained from Jesus by revelation. I deny that this applies to everything he describes as "good news" about Christ and I do so for the reasons I've already given.

He describes a unique mission to preach a unique message to gentiles in Galatians.

You apparently have nothing new to lend credibility to your position and this discussion is not actually related to the OP so I'll leave you to your beliefs. I've got better things to do than repeat myself to deaf ears. :wave:

spin

For wont of anything constructive to say -- read all your wastrel posts on this subject -- you point out sleights after sending your own.

Point in case.

If the text offends you, stop pretending to read it...

For some reason you have a blind spot here. You haven't taken any notice of anything said about them. For instance, long before any discussion was ever conceived regarding Paul's source of gospel, I went through a series of posts, eg here (though I can't get the earlier posts), pointing out that Gal 2:7-8 was secondary to the text, but you seem to need it here. But neither verse is any help to you. The first doesn't say what the gospel is, only that it was to be proclaimed amongst the gentiles. Duh! And the second, for your purposes, merely reiterates the target audience of Paul's gospel.

This is hard for you to understand: it was not that important to the people in Jerusalem what Paul's gospel was. It's that the religious praxis was necessary. They were Jews and being Jewish, whether you were messianist or not, meant following the laws.

Pure self-stimulation.

This suggests you haven't been reading my posts closely enough. I certainly do not deny that Paul didn't mean it when he claimed his "good news" to the gentiles was obtained from Jesus by revelation. I deny that this applies to everything he describes as "good news" about Christ and I do so for the reasons I've already given.[/quote]
I think you are trying to play naive now. That is not the dispute. I've already said we are dealing with messianists as is clear from Gal 1:22 and Paul is certainly a messianist. You want to go beyond the evidence.

I have no problem with that fact. It's you who do. You want to turn that into his gospel. Gospel is message, not audience.

I've held your hand long enough on this. If you are unable to deal with the issue, I guess you'll just continue to drone on with your mantra.


spin

Rick Sumner

I'm late to the party, but at least I showed up:wave:

If you're not careful Amaleq, you're going to lead me to believe that at some point in my posting here I actually convinced somebody of something. I know, you were doubtlessly convinced by something else. Give me my moment.

I think we can do better than Galatians 2 though. We have pseudo-Paul in Ephesians as quite probably the earliest witness to how Paul was received by his audience on this matter, with the author being part of that ancient audience and all.

Eph.1.13 makes it pretty clear what this early witness thought Paul's gospel was, but it gets better, because in 3.4-6 he makes it explicit. The gospel is the salvation of Gentiles. This has been revealed.

There is no room in here for gospel as any kind of knowledge about Jesus' actions. There can be no doubt that pseudo-Paul thinks that Paul's gospel concerned the results of Jesus' death, the "good news" had nothing to do with what Jesus did in life (or in a mythic realm, or anywhere else you want to put his actions).

To pseudo-Paul, the idea of "gospel" being espoused by spin is purest anachronism. It just doesn't fit the "good news" he thinks Paul preached.

Curious. Where did pseudo-Paul get that idea? After all, I just got it on good authority that there is absolutely no evidence for such a reading. I guess pseudo-Paul only "pretended to read" Paul as well.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Amaleq13

The moment is justifiably yours to take, sir. At most, you might have to give one or two credit for an assist.

spin

Ya gotta do better than that, Rick. Context betrays you.

Why was Paul in prison? the writer muses for him in 3:1. The answer given is because he brought the mystery to the gentiles, so that they "have become fellow heirs, members of the same body and sharers" in the gospel.

Obviously the gospel is the message of Paul's religion. The mystery of christ is not that the gentiles can have a go as well. That's not a mystery at all. It's just Paul's commission.

Sorry. Try again.


spin

Rick Sumner

The mystery of Christ is not that the Gentiles can have a go as well?

Someone forgot to tell the author of Ephesians that.

Eph.3.4-6:

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Emphasis, of course, added. That the "mystery of Christ" is that the "Gentiles should be fellow heirs" is exactly what the author of Ephesians has stated, and if you read, rather than quote-mined, the passage you'd have seen that.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Rick Sumner

For some added information, for anyone inclined to investigate further, here are some references. That the "mystery" pseudo-Paul speaks of in Ephesians is God's eschatological plan of salvation is self-evident.

I invite the reader to determine for themselves whether or not spin is prooftexting.

2.2.2. Ephesians 1:9; 3:3, 4, 9; 5:32; 6:19. Ephesians has been called the “epistle of the mystery.” Paul uses the term six times in the letter and in Ephesians 3:2–11, in the context of his stewardship, he presents the fullest NT expression of this concept. . .

As a steward of the mystery Paul knows that the Gentiles were destined to be fellow heirs, members of the same body and partakers of the same promises as Israel (Eph 3:6). In the reconciliation (see Peace, Reconciliation) of Jews and Gentiles in one body the manifold wisdom of God is unfolded (Eph 3:10; see Body of Christ). The very existence of the church bears witness to the “administration of the mystery,” which further implies the defeat and ultimate overthrow of the powers. In Ephesians 5:32 the “mystery” points to the union of Christ and the church, the meaning of which (perhaps like Gen 2:24) is hidden.

Gerald F. Hawthorne et al., Dictionary of Paul and His Letters (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1993), 622. (entry Mystery, emphasis added)

The more specifically Pauline use is for items of revelation disclosed at the same time that Paul identifies them as mysteries. Generally, these are matters of future eschatology, such as the salvation of Israel by way of its “hardening” (Rom. 11:25), the general resurrection (1 Cor. 15:51), and God’s plan to unite all things in Christ (Eph. 1:9)—a secret decreed long before (cf. 1 Cor. 2:7; Col. 1:26).

Allen C. Myers, The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (Rev., augm. translation of: Bijbelse encyclopedie. Rev. ed. 1975.;Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1987), 739. (entry Mystery)

Note here the necessarily revelatory nature of the "mystery" in all of these uses. None of them carry spin's connotation.

Paul’s use of the term contrasts with that of the mystery religions, connecting it with Jesus’ crucifixion rather than with esoteric forms of knowledge (1 Cor. 1:23; 2:1–7). For Paul the mystery that has been revealed is God’s plan of salvation. In Eph. 6:19 he speaks of the mystery of the gospel. Similarly, in Col. 2:2 he calls God’s mystery Christ himself. The mystery is ancient. According to Rom. 16:25 it was kept secret for long ages, but in the following verse and in Eph. 3:9–10 Paul indicates that it was revealed in the fullness of time. The mystery relates to the inclusion of the Gentiles as well as the Jews in God’s plan of salvation (Rom. 16:25–26; Col. 1:26–27; Eph. 3:3–6).

David Noel Freedman et al., Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (Grand Rapids, Mich.: W.B. Eerdmans, 2000), 931. (entry Mystery, emphasis added)

To the Jewish concept of God’s secret plan are added the Christian beliefs that the time is fulfilled and that the Messiah or Christ is Jesus. Evidence of the Jewish connection is the idea that God kept his mystery hidden for ages but revealed it to the ancient prophets and the Christian apostles (Rom. 16:25-26; 1 Cor. 2:7; 4:1; Eph. 3:9; Heb. 1:1-2; 1 Pet. 1:10-12; Rev. 10:7). Often the mystery was the heart of the Christian gospel under various names: ‘mystery of God’ (Col. 2:2; Rev. 10:7); ‘mystery of his will’ (Eph. 1:9); ‘mystery of Christ’ (Eph. 3:4; Col. 4:3); ‘mystery of the gospel’ (Eph. 6:19); ‘mystery of the faith’ (1 Tim. 3:9); ‘mystery of our religion’ (1 Tim. 3:16); ‘word of God’ (Col. 1:25-26; cf. 1 Cor. 2:7 [literal translation]: ‘we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery’).

Paul J. Achtemeier et al., Harper's Bible Dictionary (Includes index.;, 1st ed.; San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1985), 673. (entry Mystery)

A mystery, in this biblical sense, is not to be understood in the same sense of mystery in modern usage. It does not mean that the truth Paul is proclaiming is mysterious or puzzling. Rather, mystery is a technical term, meaning “something that has not previously been made known.” The mystery is: Gentiles are fellow-heirs, fellow-members, and fellow-partakers with Jews of the promises of God.

Max Anders, vol. 8, Galatians-Colossians (Holman New Testament Commentary; Holman ReferenceNashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1999), 129.

If anyone wants more, pretty well any commentary will tell you the same thing, but I've got half a dozen more on hand I can cite on the matter.

ETA WBC on Eph.3.3 for good measure

Here, in all probability under the influence of Col 1:26, 27, the term “mystery” is in the singular, and, as becomes clear from v 6, it has as its specific focus the inclusion of the Gentiles in God’s accomplishment of salvation in Christ. In Col 1:25 the stewardship received by Paul was spelled out in terms of his active proclamation of the gospel, but here in v 3 there is a different emphasis as it is elaborated instead in terms of his passive reception of revelation.

It is this notion of revelation which receives emphasis by the placing of the phrase κατὰ ἀποκάλλυψιν, “according to revelation,” at the beginning of the clause (cf. also the use of the verb in v 5), and by the way this placement reinforces the idea of disclosure already present in “was made known.” κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν should not simply be translated “by revelation,” indicating the means by which the mystery was made known, as most commentators assume, since this is a meaning which is not attested for κατά with the accusative.

Andrew T. Lincoln, vol. 42, Word Biblical Commentary : Ephesians (, Word Biblical CommentaryDallas: Word, Incorporated, 2002), 174. (emphasis added)

Regards,
Rick Sumner

spin

As I said, Rick, you have to read in context. You are taking the words out of context (though perhaps you're not alone ).

1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3 how by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.

The reason why he is in prison is the gentiles, his stewardship of them. That stewardship involves making them aware of the mystery. Paul's gospel is not that he has stewardship over the gentiles. Duh!

4 To this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

The result of his stewardship is that the gentiles can understand the mystery.

6 that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.

He's in prison so that the gentiles can benefit from the gospel ("partake of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel").

8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light what is the plan of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

He's portrayed as saying that he's there by god's grace: he was given the mission to preach to the gentiles so that what is the hidden mystery is eventually unveiled even to the powerful.

This is how you presented part of the text:

Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Your added bold didn't seem to help your interpretation. The text doesn't tell you what the mystery is, but that Paul's task was to make the mystery known to them so that they may understand it, that the gentiles should be fellow heirs.

The link given in the AV is "whereby", which goes back to Paul's purpose. Purpose not message. The message is not explained here, just the fact that it is through the gospel that they might be partakers of the promise in christ.

The punchline of the passage is in 3:13. Don't worry about Paul's sufferings: they are what saved his readers. I think, Rick, you've just taken a subsection out of context and then misinterpreted it. :wave:


spin