Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wads4 · 11-15-2005, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atheos

According to I Kings 18 Yahweh will upon demand send fire down from heaven and consume a burnt offering in order to prove his superiority over any other god. All we need are some idol worshippers to provide "competition" by calling on their god for a few hours and then one man of faith (in Yahweh) to call for Yahweh to do his thing.

I've heard lots of rationalizations but no compelling explanation of why the same test wouldn't be valid today.

-Atheos

I quite agree, I have often considered setting up such a test. I think we would have to set up altars to the Hindu gods, as modern counterparts of Baal-then Hindu priests would sacrifice and perhaps cut themselves like the followers of Baal, and do their thing, and the priest of the God of Israel likewise; I suppose the Christians could share Yahweh's altar unless they wanted a separate one of their own for the "Christian Heavenly Father". The Moslems might as well join in also.
Sabotage and cheating would have to be eliminated. I bet Elijah sabotaged the altar of Baal with crude oil or other incendiaries. Somehow I think all parties would avoid such a direct challenge to the power of their respective gods.

Wads4 · 11-15-2005, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achristianbeliever

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

If there is a god and he care for his fans, then when they pray he will generally tend to grant them their prayers.

If there is no god or he does not care about his fans then praying will have no effect.

Many religious people around the world pray. Does it have any effect? No. Not at all. It has been proven that prayer does not change the chance of the outcomes of what you pray for. If there was 20 percent chance for something happening if you did not pray it is still 20 percent chance after praying.

How did you come to this conclusion? You said "it has been proven". For it to be proven you would have to prove that everytime says their prayers were answered it wasn't from God. Are you saying that because some people haven't had their prayers answered we should assume everyone who says the opposite is wrong by default? That's a lame argument. So go ahead explain how you have "proven" every answered prayer is not from God.

Medical trials of the power of prayer have all been negative or inconclusive,--so that is a significant degree of "proof". Also the burden of proof is upon Christians to establish that coincidental apparent answers were in fact related directly to the petitionery prayer, and to the Christian God in particular (not Tlaloc for instance)--otherwise it would be logical and reasonable to dismiss such claims as "Post hoc ergo propter hoc".
Either God intercedes to a degree which is significant enough to be directly observed and obvious, so as to change the course of events from what would be a reasonably expected outcome---or he does not, and any claims that he does are delusiory rationalisations.

Helpmabob · 11-15-2005, 03:36 AM

Be careful of asking for signs: A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh for a sign; and there shall no sign been to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah. And he left them, and departed. [Matthew 16:4] Faith is what is required.

I think that not putting your God to the test may be primarily with regard to God’s people who persist in sinning, and requiring God to come to their rescue. Their prayer is not, therefore, answered in the positive:

The LORD replied, "When the Egyptians, the Amorites, the Ammonites, the Philistines, the Sidonians, the Amalekites and the Maonites oppressed you and you cried to me for help, did I not save you from their hands? But you have forsaken me and served other gods, so I will no longer save you. Go and cry out to the gods you have chosen. Let them save you when you are in trouble!" [Judges 11:11-14]

Gideon ‘tested’ God very overtly with a different type of prayer: Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece. This time make the fleece dry and the ground covered with dew." That night God did so. Only the fleece was dry; all the ground was covered with dew. [Judges 6:39,40] Gideon did this to ascertain the Lord’s will before battle and in this case, I suggest, testing is okay.

So ask Him something in prayer for a righteous reason, and look carefully for an answer, and not only for the answer that you were expecting. Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. [James 5:13]

Clarice O'C · 11-15-2005, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wads4

Either God intercedes to a degree which is significant enough to be directly observed and obvious, so as to change the course of events from what would be a reasonably expected outcome---or he does not, and any claims that he does are delusiory rationalisations.

For example, I suppose that every Pope in history has prayed for world peace.

pharoah · 11-15-2005, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Be careful of asking for signs: A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh for a sign; and there shall no sign been to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah. And he left them, and departed. [Matthew 16:4] Faith is what is required.

This squarely conflicts with the scripture that says "These signs shall follow those that believe....".

Quote:

The LORD replied, "When the Egyptians, the Amorites, the Ammonites, the Philistines, the Sidonians, the Amalekites and the Maonites oppressed you and you cried to me for help, did I not save you from their hands? But you have forsaken me and served other gods, so I will no longer save you. Go and cry out to the gods you have chosen. Let them save you when you are in trouble!" [Judges 11:11-14]

But interestingly enough, the Bible records God saving the Isrealites several times after this incident. Jepthah, Samson, Saul and David all saved Israel from various foes. So this seems to be yet another broken promise.

Quote:

Gideon ‘tested’ God very overtly with a different type of prayer: Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece. This time make the fleece dry and the ground covered with dew." That night God did so. Only the fleece was dry; all the ground was covered with dew. [Judges 6:39,40] Gideon did this to ascertain the Lord’s will before battle and in this case, I suggest, testing is okay.So ask Him something in prayer for a righteous reason, and look carefully for an answer, and not only for the answer that you were expecting. Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. [James 5:13]

This line of reasoning provides a convenient escape hatch. If your prayer doesn't get answered then you didn't have a righteous reason for praying. The problem here is that there are too many scriptures that promise that God will unconditionally answer the prayers of believers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew 17

19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark 11

22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew 18

19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew 20

21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John 14

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

pharoah · 11-15-2005, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achristianbeliever

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

If there is a god and he care for his fans, then when they pray he will generally tend to grant them their prayers.

If there is no god or he does not care about his fans then praying will have no effect.

Many religious people around the world pray. Does it have any effect? No. Not at all. It has been proven that prayer does not change the chance of the outcomes of what you pray for. If there was 20 percent chance for something happening if you did not pray it is still 20 percent chance after praying.

How did you come to this conclusion? You said "it has been proven". For it to be proven you would have to prove that everytime says their prayers were answered it wasn't from God. Are you saying that because some people haven't had their prayers answered we should assume everyone who says the opposite is wrong by default? That's a lame argument. So go ahead explain how you have "proven" every answered prayer is not from God.

All you really need to do is just look around you for the proof.

Do devout Christians seem to be remarkably more healthy than the rest of the population?
Do devout Christians go to doctors and dentists just like the rest of us?
Do devout Christians carry health insurance just like the rest of us?
Do devout Christians use sick leave just like the rest of us?
Do devout Christians change flat tires just like the rest of us?
Do devout Christians take their wrecked cars to body shops like the rest of us?
Do devout Christians rely on guns and security companies to protect their loved ones and possessions?

I think you know the answers to all of those questions. If prayer really worked, you could rely on Jesus to do all those things and a whole lot more. The fact is that it has probably never occurred to you to ask him to do most of that because in your heart of hearts you know that it would be a complete waste of time.

RUmike · 11-15-2005, 06:18 AM

George Carlin sums up my position on prayer nicely:

Quote:

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

Here's the rest

Johnny Skeptic · 11-15-2005, 08:18 AM

No one has yet answered my topic question. I asked "How can we test God"? Better stated, "How can we test God in 'tangible' ways"? I need specific tests that people with various tangible burdens can try out. How about it, Christians?

general_koffi · 11-15-2005, 08:26 AM

It's simple, you can't.

Devil's Advocate: "We are saved through faith. If we could test God and verify His existence, we wouldn't need to have faith and everyone would be a Christian.

Besides, the Bible commands one not to test the LORD. The Bible is right because it's the Word of God and we know this because it says so."

It's an incredibly Invisible-Pink style argument, but that's theists for you.

TomboyMom · 11-15-2005, 08:35 AM

How about this:
We flip a coin say ummm 20,000 times. During 5000 of the flips devout sincere Christians who actually believe it will make a difference pray for heads. During 5000 flips devout etc. Muslims etc. During 5000 flips devout etc. followers of some other faith etc. And during 5000 flips a bunch of atheist free-thinkers have a party, use their brains, fornicate, or do whatever atheists like to do. Then we count up the heads during each 5000 flips and see if there's any measurable difference. What do you think, christianbeliever, fair test? Why or why not?

btw review of studies of third party intercessory prayer seem to show that prayer benefits the person praying, but has no measurable effect on the health of the person prayed for. Christianbeliever: what do you make of these studies?

11-15-2005, 08:18 AM	#18
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	How can we test God? No one has yet answered my topic question. I asked "How can we test God"? Better stated, "How can we test God in 'tangible' ways"? I need specific tests that people with various tangible burdens can try out. How about it, Christians?

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11-15-2005, 03:36 AM	#13
Helpmabob Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: UK Posts: 431	Be careful of asking for signs: A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh for a sign; and there shall no sign been to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah. And he left them, and departed. [Matthew 16:4] Faith is what is required. I think that not putting your God to the test may be primarily with regard to God’s people who persist in sinning, and requiring God to come to their rescue. Their prayer is not, therefore, answered in the positive: The LORD replied, "When the Egyptians, the Amorites, the Ammonites, the Philistines, the Sidonians, the Amalekites and the Maonites oppressed you and you cried to me for help, did I not save you from their hands? But you have forsaken me and served other gods, so I will no longer save you. Go and cry out to the gods you have chosen. Let them save you when you are in trouble!" [Judges 11:11-14] Gideon ‘tested’ God very overtly with a different type of prayer: Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece. This time make the fleece dry and the ground covered with dew." That night God did so. Only the fleece was dry; all the ground was covered with dew. [Judges 6:39,40] Gideon did this to ascertain the Lord’s will before battle and in this case, I suggest, testing is okay. So ask Him something in prayer for a righteous reason, and look carefully for an answer, and not only for the answer that you were expecting. Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. [James 5:13]

11-15-2005, 08:26 AM	#19
general_koffi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 10,887	It's simple, you can't. Devil's Advocate: "We are saved through faith. If we could test God and verify His existence, we wouldn't need to have faith and everyone would be a Christian. Besides, the Bible commands one not to test the LORD. The Bible is right because it's the Word of God and we know this because it says so." It's an incredibly Invisible-Pink style argument, but that's theists for you.

11-15-2005, 08:35 AM	#20
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	How about this: We flip a coin say ummm 20,000 times. During 5000 of the flips devout sincere Christians who actually believe it will make a difference pray for heads. During 5000 flips devout etc. Muslims etc. During 5000 flips devout etc. followers of some other faith etc. And during 5000 flips a bunch of atheist free-thinkers have a party, use their brains, fornicate, or do whatever atheists like to do. Then we count up the heads during each 5000 flips and see if there's any measurable difference. What do you think, christianbeliever, fair test? Why or why not? btw review of studies of third party intercessory prayer seem to show that prayer benefits the person praying, but has no measurable effect on the health of the person prayed for. Christianbeliever: what do you make of these studies?

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