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Old 02-11-2009, 08:33 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DCHindley View Post
I dunno. I may have been thinking of the fact that Nehemiah 12:1-7 (520/519 BC) or Nehemiah 12:12-21 both have 22 courses (many of the names are different between these lists). Nehemiah 10:1-8 (dated depending upon which Artaxerxes was meant: A I 445/444 BC; A II 385/384 BC) or 1 Chronicles 24:3-18 (written between Exra/Nehemiah - 400 BC? - and 250 BC, but probably before 300 BC), on the other hand, have 24. Suposedly, Ezra (who I think is a fictional character) brought two more families with him (Ezra 8:2), but even if he was real no one seems to be able to pin down which Artaxerxes he arrived under (i.e., A I 458/457 BC; A II 398/397 BC; A III 352/351 BC). Another mess!

The DSS do all speak of 24 courses, but 26 will have served in a 364 day, or even a regular solar, year. That means 26 heads of families in a year.
I've already dealt with this: the mishmarot were for a six year period. This allowed for 13 cycles of the priestly clans before returning to the same at the beginning of the year. See 4Q320 for example.


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Originally Posted by DCHindley View Post
Vid, though, is right that each course served for a week at a time. Don't know why I was thinking 2 weeks straight. Funny, though, there is still debate regardng whether the priestly courses rotated backwards as described above, or they had some sort of fixed schedule that was identical year to year, or varied a little in years with intercalations:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6j-...esult#PPA79,M1
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Old 02-12-2009, 07:00 AM   #22
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Hi Vid,

DCH, Spin, and Sheshbazzar have beautifully covered this for you, and there's really nothing of substance I can add, except to recommend a book I happened onto--

Calendar and Chronology, Jewish and Christian (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Roger T. Beckwith, published by Brill.

It can be a little dense reading sometimes, but it does address the calendars in great detail. Hope this helps!

Sarai
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Old 05-16-2010, 06:10 PM   #23
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It appears that at some point the sages added up the years from the bible and came up with the total. The difference with this total and Bishop Ussher's mostly seems to be the number of years in Egypt. The Bishop used 430 I think, from Exodus 12:40, but Jews figure that Jochebed (Moses mother) was born while traveling to Egypt from Canaan and come up with something a few hundred years less.

Here is a Christian who has looked at the issue

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/210.htm
Yes, Jews claim that the Israelites were in Egypt just 210 years, because the face-value reading of Exodus 12:40 is at odds with the Exodus-6 genealogy:

Quote:
16 The following are the names of the sons of Levi according to their genealogies: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari, and the length of Levi’s life was one hundred and thirty-seven years. 17 The sons of Gershon: Libni and Shimei, by their families. 18 The sons of Kohath: Amram, Izhar, Hebron, and Uzziel, and the length of Kohath’s life was one hundred and thirty-three years. 19The sons of Merari: Mahli and Mushi. These are the families of the Levites according to their genealogies. 20 Amram married Jochebed his father’s sister and she bore him Aaron and Moses, and the length of Amram’s life was one hundred and thirty-seven years.
The most time in Egypt that the Exodus-6 genealogy allows is around 350 years (as the Christian at the link you provide agrees), and this is being as generous as possible by assuming that Kohath was only an infant when he entered Egypt (we know from Genesis 46:11 that he had already been born) and that both he and his son Amram, father of Moses, sired children in the last years of their lives. The circa-350-years figure comes from adding the ages of Kohath and Amram when they died to Moses’ age at the exodus (Exodus 7:7 says, “Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three when they spoke to Pharaoh.”) We know that Moses was still only 80 when actually led the exodus, since he died at the age of 120 (Deuteronomy 34:7), and the Israelites wandered for 40 years under Moses’ leadership (Ex. 16:35, Nu. 14:26-34, Deut. 8:2).

One problem with the Jewish and Christian assertion that only 210 years were spent in Egypt is that it is at odds with the "prediction" in Genesis 15:

Quote:
12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a deep and terrifying darkness descended upon him. 13 Then Yahweh said to Abram, ‘Know this for certain, that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs, and shall be slaves there, and they shall be oppressed for four hundred years; 14 but I will bring judgement on the nation that they serve, and afterwards they shall come out with great possessions.16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.’
Jews and some Christians argue that the 400 years started with the birth of Isaac, but this is inconsistent with the text, which says that the affliction would take place, "in a land that is not theirs," which would not apply to Canaan since Yahweh had given this land to Abraham's descendants (Genesis 15:18). Notice, too, that the Israelites were to "come back here [Canaan]" (v:16), indicating that the oppression took place elsewhere. Finally, there is no way that Israelites (descendants of Jacob/Israel) could have sojourned in Egypt (per Exodus 12:40) prior to Jacob/Israel's having offspring. There couldn't be "children of Israel" until Jacob/Israel actually had children. It is no more accurate to refer to those before Jacob and their descendants as "children of Israel" than it is to refer to them as "Edomites" or "children of Edom" because Jacob's twin brother Esau was the progenitor of the Edomites (Genesis 36:1 ff).

There is no way that Christians or Jews can resolve the Egyptian-sojourn error because whatever resolution is atempted to harmonize two of the three passages (Exodus 6:16-20; Genesis 15:13-16; Exodus 12:40) becomes inconsistent with the third.

The tradition about Jochebed to which you refer, which says that Jochebed was conceived on the way to Egypt, is seen in the following examples, which, by the way, show that Jews realized full well that no generations were skipped in the Exodus-6 genealogy, contrary to one of the "solutions" offered by some Christian apologists:

Quote:
http://www.come-and-hear.com/bababat...athra_120.html
Folio 120a

how could she be called 'daughter'1 when she was a hundred and thirty years old; for R. Hama b. Hanina said:2 It was Jochebed who was conceived on the way3 and born between the walls [of Egypt] for so it is written, Who was born4 to Levi in Egypt,5 [which implies that] her birth was in Egypt but her conception was not in Egypt.6 Why, then, was she called, 'daughter'? — R. Judah b. Zebida said: This teaches that marks of youth reappeared on her. The flesh [of her body] was again smooth, the wrinkles [of old age] were straightened out and [her] beauty returned.7

http://www.come-and-hear.com/sotah/sotah_12.html
Folio 12a


“A daughter of Levi. How is this possible! She was one hundred and thirty years old, and he calls her 'a daughter'! (For R. Hama b. Hanina said: This refers to Jochebed whose conception occurred during the journey [to Egypt] and her birth between the walls; as it is said: Who was born to Levi in Egypt — her birth occurred in Egypt but her conception did not occur there.) — Rab Judah said: [She is called 'a daughter'] because the signs of maidenhood were reborn in her.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj306.htm
The extent of God's love for Levi is evident through the command given to Moses, to number in the tribe of Levi "all males from a month old and upward," whereas in the other tribes none were numbered save men able to go to war, from twenty years and upward. Upon other occasions God had even the embryos among the Levites numbered. This occurred upon Jacob's entrance into Egypt, when the number seventy for his family was attained only by including Jochebed who was still in the womb; and similarly at a future time upon the return of the exiles from Babylon. For at that time only twenty-three of the priestly sections returned, hence to complete their number they had to include Bigvai, who belonged to the missing section, even though he was still in the womb.
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Old 05-17-2010, 03:02 AM   #24
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The simple question is, when does the year(s), and a count of years begin?
Where is the first hour, of the first day, of the first Month, of the first year?
And on what day of the week?
And what difference could it make?

An oft made mistake when considering the Bible, is confusing the ideas and actions of the religion of Judaism, with the beliefs and acts of the earlier Hebrews.
What became, is NOT what was.
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:24 AM   #25
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The flood in Noah lasted exactly a solar year. This was known to the sages who did a song and dance about it, but probably there was a solar instead of lunar year when this was written.

That being said, the festival of the new moon, I think is old, but most likely they didn't use the lunar cycle to count years until after the Baylonian exile.
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