Iskander

Saxon England converted in the sixth century. King Aethelbert was, apparently, the first of several kings then reigning in what is now England. In July 598 more than 10000 Saxons were baptized.

Constantine is only one of the many kings that converted to Christianity. The pagan roman cult of the emperor, animal sacrifices, examination of animal entrails...was a dead religion long before Constantine.

mountainman

What's new in politics at the top? The dog ate the dog. The New True Regime disparages the Old False Regime. The focus was on Moses and Jesus and the Apostles, not on Socrates or Pythagoras or Plotinus. Besides the heresiologists aim was to HARMONIZE the death and destruction of heretics as the victory of the One True Centralised Monotheistic State religious cult over the ignorant and unwashed Unbelievers.

But who is really interested in the fall and disappearance of the 4th century pagans when the subject taught in the theological colleges of the 21st century is covered by the closure of the Christian canon?

I am not aware of any conventional explanation for the disappearance of the pagans. Is anyone aware of such an explanation?

mountainman

If you dont count Philip the Arab, Constantine was the very first Christian Emperor King off the rank.

Animal sacrifices, examination of animal entrails was practiced under the Emperor Julian. His nickname was "Bullburner".

More recently Arnoldo Momigliono unabashedly compared the roman cult of emperor worship with the overnight rise of that "man of providence", Mussolini. Momigliano knew only too well was it was like to be a heretic. He had to flee.

Duvduv

What is the evidence that Arius was a pagan and not a Christian whose christology simply differed from the Orthodox?

mountainman

The evidence is summarised and presented in the above essay.

Bullneck himself described Arius as a "Porphyrian".

This may itself be sufficient cause to consider that Arius of Alexandria - the "Porphyrian" - was as pagan as Porphyry.




The following schematic summarises one aspect of the claim.

Iskander

Yes, Julian tried to resurrect the pagan corpse but failed; the corpse was already rotting and besides it really stank..

You are quoting Mussolini from your Bible? Very droll, I am sure.


Mussolini was imitating the pagan emperors, the one like Divus Augustus.

Suetonius, The twelve Caesars.
Translated by, Robert Graves
Penguin book 1957
Divus Augustus, [31], page 60


“Assuming the office of pontifex maximus vacated by the death of Lepidus...he collected all the copies of Greek and Latin prophetic verses then current and burnt more than 2000.

He kept only the Sibylline Books and edited even these before depositing them in two gilded cases under the pedestal of palatine Apollo’s image

Since official negligence had allowed the calendar, reformed by Divus Julius, to fall into confusion, he put it straight again, and while doing so he renamed the month of Sextilis after himself.”

The pagan roman religion was mercifully buried deep by the common man and the common woman.

Duvduv

Mountainman, I am not sure I understand why this chart is EVIDENCE that Arius was not a Christian but a pagan.
Also, you might argue that Marcion was also a pagan in Christian disguise in the writings of the heresiologists.
And where do mainstream scholars believe the pagans disappeared to without a trace?
Please clarify. Thanks.

mountainman

I am not sure that I understand your invective against the "pagan corpus of literature" in which the Greek intellectual tradition (i.e. mathematics, science, astronomy, philosophy, medicine, etc, etc, etc) was bound. Yes in that depraved age of mass slavery and short brutish war-bound lives the "sacrifice of animals, etc" was prevalent through all regions of the world. Apollonius of Tyana is cited by the authorities as an authority on sacrifice, and on the unnecessary need to sacrifice to the "god who is above them all".

Am I to understand you would apply the same invective to the "Christian Corpus of literature" - that it was rotten and it stank?



No no no I am not. I am quoting the heretic who had to flee the rise of Mussolini, the Italian-Jewish scholar Momigliano, who was to become one of the world's foremost ancient historians. Momigliano is comparing the sudden and unexpected rise of Mussolini (and his agreements with the Church), with the sudden and unexpected rise of Roman Emperors such as Constantine.

He describes the parallel in these terms as a ...

revival of emperor worship in which it was difficult to
separate the adulation from political emotion, and political
emotion from religious or superstitious exitement.

Yes I do agree with this sentiment. The Roman Emperors may be appropriately described in today's terminology as supreme imperial mafia thugs, who commanded their own permanent armies, minted their own coins, raised their own taxes and fullfilled the age-old "religious" role of "Pontifex Maximus" - the head of all the heads of the milieu of pagan priesthoods.

We must remember that Constantine was one of these.


This is a false historical claim. In the year 324/325 CE, when he became the supreme military commander of the East-West Roman empire, Constantine established a few extremely unprecedented practices:

1) Prohibition of pagan religion in the temples.

This is sometimes referred to as prohibition of pagan sacrifice. The net effect was that the "pagan Egypto-Graeco-Roman" religious activities that were considered "Temple business-as-usual" were prohibited, and the prohibition was enforced by Constantine's army.


2) Destruction of pagan temples and architecture, execution of chief priests

Constantine ordered his army to utterly destroy major pagan temples in the eastern empire. Ammianus tells us he pulled over the remaining last and largest obelisk in Egypt, dedicated to the sun. Archaeology corroborates this story. Eusebius delightedly informs his readers that in some cases the head priests of the pagan temples were publically executed. Constantine is thus seen to be immediately establishing precedents and setting examples.


Therefore it is falso to claim that the pagan roman religion was mercifully buried deep by the common man and the common woman, since it was immediately and unmercifully buried deep by the warlord Constantine, as soon as he became the supreme military commander of the empire.



What was buried deep was the pagan history of these events, and the subsequent events in Constantine's supremacy (324-337 CE).

mountainman

Duvduv, I repeat that I have very little idea where mainstream scholars think the pagans disappeared and how. AFAIK mainstream scholars of high regard were traditionally enthusiastic about telling the story of the christians, not the pagans. One recent scholar, Charles Freeman writes that the "Greek intellectual tradition did not just fall away, it was suppressed".




I must repeat that all the claims and evidence have been set out in an essay here. I have spent considerable time gathering the evidence presented in this essay, and would be happy to answer questions arising from a reading of this essay.



Precisely. The essay is about identity theft. Eusebius fabricated identities in his version of ecclesiastical history, by - in some cases - using known figures of the 3rd century Platonic lineage of philosophers.

Marcion may have been a famous book collector and ship builder of Sinope, a rich and influential figure in his lifetime.



This is an important question.
I dont know the answer to it.

I have mentioned Freeman.


Best wishes



Pete

Duvduv

I'll read it. It is an amazing issue that needs research. Supposedly Justinian also "suppressed" all the pagans. But how does an emerging minority eliminate the large indigenous population's historical religion? Maybe it was easy because they weren't an identifiable community per se, so that by eliminating their temples they just assimilated in with everyone else....

Mountainman, do you have some kind of abridged version of that article? There is so much there to try to get through.