Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 12-14-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Christian writings do refer to Jesus as Kyrios, or Lord, which can mean god, but not as Theos.

Thanks very much for the link, Toto, there I read, for the first time, that

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The first letters of the Greek word for fish, ichthus, were also the first letters of the words Jesus Christ and so fish became a secret symbol for early Christians to identify one another.

Dear readers,

I too have often wondered upon what basis was there considered to be any association whatsoever between the fish symbol and "early christianity". Here is one claim which makes the association based on the common greek letters in the name of "fish" and in the name of "Henry". This secret symbol does not seem to have been explicitly referred to in much (if any) of the "early christian underground lierature". I suppose there will be someone who will argue that this was nowhere explicitly mentioned because we are dealing with a secretive underground society.

Is this a case of "when you have no archaeology invent some"?

Best wishes,

Pete

Quote:

Here's another photograph of the two fish, a bit clearer, to my eye at least.

arnoldo · 12-14-2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Is this a case of "when you have no archaeology invent some"?

Best wishes,

Pete

More invented archaeology?

Source: The AdHoc Image and Text Database on the History of Christianity

mountainman · 12-14-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Is this a case of "when you have no archaeology invent some"?

More invented archaeology? Source: The AdHoc Image and Text Database on the History of Christianity

Dear arnaldo,

We do not have a crucified fish in the NT canon, and not every fisherman in the Mediterranean (and the entire Roman empire) was a follower of the good shepherd in the period of "early christian origins". There appeared to be no reason to associate "fish" and "christianity" before seeing the quoted claim, that the association was because the greek letters which "fish" and "JC" have in common. I am not sure whether this claim has been made before, but it was the first I had heard about this association. Otherwise, if the relationship between "fish" and "christianiy" is not by way of these greek letters, is there a relationship at all? If there is, what is it? And how can we be sure?

Best wishes,

Pee

Toto · 12-14-2008, 10:27 PM

There are quite a few early references to the fish - ichthys - Jesus symbolism in early Christianity. I don't know how you could have missed them.

Ichthys lists these early references to the ICHTHYS - Iesous CHristos connection.

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Some sources indicate that the earliest literary references came from the recommendation of Clement of Alexandria to his readers (Paedagogus, III, xi) to engrave their seals with the dove or fish.

However, it can be inferred from Roman monumental sources such as the Capella Greca and the Sacrament Chapels of the catacomb of St. Callistus that the fish symbol was known to Christians much earlier.

...

Tertullian, in his treatise On Baptism, makes a pun on the word, writing that "we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ Jesus Christ, are born in water."

There is more on the Capella Graeca http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06165a.htm.

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Upon the symbolic significance of the fish and the anagram ichthys, it cannot be necessary to insist. Both the inscription of Abercius (q.v.) of the close of the second century and that of Autun a little later, as well as the large number of allusions in early Christian literature, make it clear that our Saviour Jesus Christ was indicated by this symbol (see e.g. Mowat in the "Atti del Congresso Internnaz. d'Archeol. Crist.", Rome, 1902, pp. 2-4)

Symbolism of the fish

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the earliest literary reference to the symbolic fish is made by Clement of Alexandria, born about 150, who recommends his readers (The Pedagogue III.11) to have their seals engraved with a dove or a fish. Clement did not consider it necessary to give any reason for this recommendation, from which it may be safely be inferred that the meaning of both symbols was unnecessary. Indeed, from monumental sources we know that the symbolic fish was familiar to Christians long before the famous Alexandrian was born; in such Roman monuments as the Capella Greca and the Sacrament Chapels of the catacomb of St. Callistus, the fish was depicted as a symbol in the first decades of the second century.

avi · 12-15-2008, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There are quite a few early references to the fish - ichthys - Jesus symbolism in early Christianity. I don't know how you could have missed them....

I was aware that Christians employ a fish symbol to represent their faith in the divinity of their messiah, ("a fisher of men") but what I did not know was that the Greek word for fish corresponds to the "nomina sacra":

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

early references to the ICHTHYS - Iesous CHristos

OOPS. What about "THEOS", right there, Toto, you wrote the first two: ICHTH Iesous, CHristos, ....... THEos.
n.b. NOT son of god, unless YS means son of ....

Toto · 12-15-2008, 10:04 AM

Ichthys is not the same as nomina sacra. The I in ichthys corresponds to the I in IESOUS, but the second letter in the nominum sacrum (?) is missing. the second letter is X (chi) which corresponds to CHristos.

The entire fish acrostic is Iesous Christos Theou Uios Soter = Jesus Christ God's Son Savior in its most literal translation. (U = Y = ypsilon)

avi · 12-15-2008, 12:59 PM

Holy Cow.
How could the educators have permitted us to skip Greek?
Fantastic.
Thanks Toto. Amazing.
:notworthy:

Lugubert · 12-15-2008, 01:53 PM

I heard the fish - Ichthys explanation at an early and impressionable age, and didn't question it. I just thought it was a clever code, and found it a bonus that I learned my first Greek words.

Nowadays, my knee-jerk when confronted with a word that's explained as an acronym is that the explanation is probably wrong.

That said, I haven't spent enough adult time to made up my mind on this case.

andrewcriddle · 12-15-2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anders

I heard the fish - Ichthys explanation at an early and impressionable age, and didn't question it. I just thought it was a clever code, and found it a bonus that I learned my first Greek words.

Nowadays, my knee-jerk when confronted with a word that's explained as an acronym is that the explanation is probably wrong.

That said, I haven't spent enough adult time to made up my mind on this case.

Some scholars have questioned the acrostic origin of the fish symbol, but whether right or wrong this is an ancient explanation not a modern one.

See for example The Sibylline Acrostic

Andrew Criddle

Clivedurdle · 12-15-2008, 03:09 PM

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12-15-2008, 12:59 PM	#7
avi Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Location: eastern North America Posts: 1,468	WOW. Holy Cow. How could the educators have permitted us to skip Greek? Fantastic. Thanks Toto. Amazing. :notworthy:

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12-15-2008, 10:04 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Ichthys is not the same as nomina sacra. The I in ichthys corresponds to the I in IESOUS, but the second letter in the nominum sacrum (?) is missing. the second letter is X (chi) which corresponds to CHristos. The entire fish acrostic is Iesous Christos Theou Uios Soter = Jesus Christ God's Son Savior in its most literal translation. (U = Y = ypsilon)

12-15-2008, 01:53 PM	#8
Lugubert Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Western Sweden Posts: 3,684	I heard the fish - Ichthys explanation at an early and impressionable age, and didn't question it. I just thought it was a clever code, and found it a bonus that I learned my first Greek words. Nowadays, my knee-jerk when confronted with a word that's explained as an acronym is that the explanation is probably wrong. That said, I haven't spent enough adult time to made up my mind on this case.

12-15-2008, 03:09 PM	#10
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	153

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