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08-17-2007, 10:21 AM | #61 |
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A 4mb PDF of the Cumont article Un bas relief Mithriaque du louvre is here.
For those willing to tolerate some errors, a scan of the text is here. It contains a translation of the relevant portion of the anonymous work in question. I'll translate the relevant portions into English later today: give me a few hours to deal with domestic stuff. |
08-17-2007, 11:55 AM | #62 |
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Here is the translation:
All the best, Roger Pearse |
08-17-2007, 02:10 PM | #63 |
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Good stuff Andrew and Roger!
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08-18-2007, 06:05 AM | #64 |
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This material does appear to be responding to the legendary narrative about Zoroaster which took shape during the Sassanid period (After 200 CE) and is first found in Pahlavi texts like the Dinkart/Denkard.
http://irantarikh.com/persia/dinkrd71.htm I have doubts whether it can be used as evidence of pre-Sassanid beliefs and hence whether it can be used as evidence for Mithraism. (Only pre-Sassanid Zoroastrianism can have influenced Zoroastrianism for obvious chronological reasons.) Andrew Criddle |
08-18-2007, 06:49 AM | #65 |
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One point of interest from Cumont's article is that a French translation does exist of this work, in manuscript. It would be interesting to know where Cumont's papers are. Likewise those of Mr. Levi della Vida, who has a Wikipedia entry as a Jewish-Italian orientalist.
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08-18-2007, 06:54 AM | #66 |
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It would seem that a Magian text existed, in which these words appeared, but we still have no evidence of any connection with Mithras here. "Perhaps" is as close as Cumont will go, if I read him aright.
An interesting statement by Cumont: "It is not doubtful that certain Magi moved their traditions closer to the doctrines of the Church and claimed for themselves the priority". The lack of any real reference for this is somewhat annoying. The statement of Theodore bar Koni, the Nestorian scholiast in the early Abbasid period, would be interesting to see, I admit, but I don't know if it would back up what Cumont said. All the best, Roger Pearse |
08-21-2007, 07:56 AM | #67 |
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I have discovered that the papers of Franz Cumont are held at the Academia Belgica in Rome. I have written to them today to ask if they have Levi della Vida's translation of Mingana 142.
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08-21-2007, 03:36 PM | #68 |
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In regard to the search for the historical Mithra, in addition to
comments about its known trajectory from Indus-Sarasvati, thence Iran to Anatolia then on to Rome and its empire, one salient point needs to be underscored. In the year c.220 CE, Ardashir shut down the Parthian empire. The old gods got shafted for a brand new version of monotheism called Zoroastrianism. The written knowledge of the ancient Parthian civilisation, which had carried the trajectory of Mithra, was utterly destroyed by the military despot Ardashir. This is a boundary event with respect to the search for the historical Mithra, and anything "Parthian". The worship of Mithra in the (then) Roman empire was essentially "cut off from its source". There was no going back to the roots of Mithra in Parthia, because Ardashir had created the theocracy of Iran, and there, in the "eastern home country one step removed from the empire", the god had been rebadged. Mithra sounds like a river cut-off from its ancient source. It may have flowed from the east in ancient days, but the Ardashir boundary event cut off its source, in the same manner that the ancient Sarasvati River mentioned in the Rig Veda, was cut off from its Himalayan source and gradually ceased to flow, drying up c.1900 BCE. Best wishes, Pete |
08-21-2007, 04:00 PM | #69 | |
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Quote:
Its a real pity something does not say when the arrival of christ happened, with respect to the search for the historical christ. However any writing conflating Mithra and Zoroastrianism, as outlined above, needs to clearly mention the boundary event of the early third century, at which time the nation of Iran came into existence and the ancient civilisation, and all written records of the Parthians (ie: pre- c.220 CE) were utterly destroyed. The monotheistic Zoroastrianism was invented by the warlord from fragments of the ancient Parthian hymn "The Avesta" --- its all that remains of Parthia. His deathbed advice to his son Shapur I was: “Consider the Fire Altar and the ThroneIt was good for business. The army marches with one song. Best wishes, Pete |
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08-22-2007, 10:48 AM | #70 | ||
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Quote:
http://sacred-texts.com/chr/bb/bb37.htm Has a version of the passage in Theodore_bar_Koni Quote:
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