Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 08-04-2007, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkropotkin

Thanks, that makes more sense. Also isn't "Mithra, the Secret God" a translation?, could it be that the sourcing was better in the original? and I guess since Vermaseren was Cumont's student, it seems unlikely he would be using a secondary source referring to Cumont.

A good thought: it is indeed a translation. I must seek out the original. I agree about Cumont.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Ray Moscow · 08-05-2007, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

It would be very interesting to see the primary references for this from Mithraic ceremonies.

Again, can we not derail?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

But coming back to your original post: doesn't Justin Martyr attribute this quote to Mithras?

It's not necessary to look for parallel quotes in Zorastrian literature.

Roger Pearse · 08-06-2007, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

But coming back to your original post: doesn't Justin Martyr attribute this quote to Mithras?

No.

Quote:

It's not necessary to look for parallel quotes in Zorastrian literature.

I'm looking for the source of the quote. That is the *only* source we have for the attribution to Mithras.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Ray Moscow · 08-06-2007, 02:12 AM

Actually, you're right. Justin Martyr does not attribute the exact quote to Mithras, but rather says the Initiations of Mithras practiced and taught something very similar.

from: http://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/gar/gar18.htm

Quote:

The Apostles in the Commentaries written by themselves, which we call Gospels, have delivered down to us that Jesus thus commanded them: He having taken bread, after that He had given thanks, * said: Do this in commemoration of me; this is my body. Also having taken a cup and returned thanks, He said: This is my blood, and delivered it unto them alone. Which things indeed the evil spirits have taught to be done, out of memory, in the Mysteries and Initiations of Mithras. For in these likewise a cup of water, and bread, are set out, with the addition of certain words, in the sacrifice or act of worship of the person about to be initiated: a thing which Ye either know by personal experience or may learn by inquiry."

(emphasis added)

He says that they added "certain words", but we don't know what those were, nor which words they had in common with the Christian tradition.

However, why look so hard from a Zorastrian parallel? Mithraism apparently comes from similar roots as Zorastrianism but was quite a different tradition by the 1st century CE.

Chili · 08-06-2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

He says that they added "certain words", but we don't know what those were, nor which words they had in common with the Christian tradition.

"Water" is not the blood of Christ. The body and blood of Christ reference the fruit of the vine and water is just not one of those.

"To learn by inquiry" denies participation according to Jn.5:39-40.

Ray Moscow · 08-07-2007, 02:19 AM

But some early Christians did use water instead of wine for the Eucharist. The Mithras ceremonies were very similar to the Christian ones -- that's why Justin takes the trouble to explain why they are not the same nor of the same origin.

I think "to learn by inquiry" means that the reader, if he doesn't already know personally (by initiation and participation), can easily find out for himself what is involved in Mithraic ceremonies. Apparently at least this level of the "mysteries" were already common knowledge.

Chili · 08-07-2007, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

But some early Christians did use water instead of wine for the Eucharist. The Mithras ceremonies were very similar to the Christian ones -- that's why Justin takes the trouble to explain why they are not the same nor of the same origin.

Yes but they were probe-ably those identified in John 6:66 who later used water to be symbolic instead of transubstantiational as sacramental wine to which a drop of water is added to initiate the process. This process is universal to mankind and is a required to fully understand the mystery of faith.

I think "to learn by inquiry" means that the reader, if he doesn't already know personally (by initiation and participation), can easily find out for himself what is involved in Mithraic ceremonies. Apparently at least this level of the "mysteries" were already common knowledge.[/QUOTE]

Participation is with the divine instead of with ceremonial allegories to the point that there is no mystery left once participation has revealed the innermost secrets of a mystery religion. I can think here of Jesus' line to Peter; "no one has told you [that I am the messiah] but my father in heaven" and urged Peter to tell noone that he was the messiah.

This is exactly where imitators miss the details while boasting about their insight as if their eyes were only half opened = gnostic but still heretic and dangerous. Hence cold is OK, hot is OK but lukewarm is wrong.

Last post in my derail.

spin · 08-08-2007, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

References to 'Meher' are being treated as 'Mithra'.

Meher or Mihr is the Armenian form of the name. You'll find a feast called Mithrakana, which is also found as Mihragan.

spin

jjramsey · 08-08-2007, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

References to 'Meher' are being treated as 'Mithra'.

Meher or Mihr is the Armenian form of the name. You'll find a feast called Mithrakana, which is also found as Mihragan.

Are we talking Mithras, the Roman god of a mystery religion, or the Iranian god Mithras?

Roger Pearse · 08-08-2007, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Meher or Mihr is the Armenian form of the name. You'll find a feast called Mithrakana, which is also found as Mihragan.

On what source are these statements based?

Quote:

Are we talking Mithras, the Roman god of a mystery religion, or the Iranian god Mithras?

Mitra. This is why I am wondering about what the actual Persian words are.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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08-07-2007, 02:19 AM	#26
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	But some early Christians did use water instead of wine for the Eucharist. The Mithras ceremonies were very similar to the Christian ones -- that's why Justin takes the trouble to explain why they are not the same nor of the same origin. I think "to learn by inquiry" means that the reader, if he doesn't already know personally (by initiation and participation), can easily find out for himself what is involved in Mithraic ceremonies. Apparently at least this level of the "mysteries" were already common knowledge.

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