Solo

...or the idea of creating twelve disciples/apostles to match the twelve tribes. Clearly it was not Mark who mentions Jesus' disciples in 2:16, well before "the appointment" of the mystery Twelve in 3:14.

Jiri

aa5874

It was TedM who claimed that there is NO such thing as history.


No. The twelve would JUDGE the 12 tribes.

Judges do not represent they JUDGE.

Jesus in the NT needed 12 JUDGES for his kingdom not 12 representatives for the tribes

LK 22:29-30

Nathan Poe

Indeed -- what was it Napoleon said? "'History' is the myth men agree to believe," or something similar?

Nathan Poe

I'd love to see his original quote, so we can observe and discuss how it's since been mangled.

In any event, the idea of studying "history" as an objective series of causes and effects with no consideration as to the sociopolitical agendas of the people recording it is naive -- to consider the Bible as such is laughably so.

But I suspect we're getting off topic -- I further suspect that that was the point.

Tell me more about the things an omnipotent avatar of the Almighty needs...

On second thought, don't bother. If you want to pretend that this is a significant difference as opposed to a semantic hiccup, and thus infer that the fact that there were twelve is a historical coincidence as opposed to a literary invention, that's your affair. If straining at gnats makes it easier for you to swallow the camel, who am I to stop you?

Vorkosigan

Were the Twelve related to the Twelve tribes? Same discussion is going on over at JM where there is evidence offered of astrological origin as well.

From Clement: "The followers of Valentinus defined the Angel as a Logos having a message from Him who is. And, using the same ter minology, they call the Aeons Logoi. He says the Apostles were substituted for the twelve signs of the Zodiac, for, as birth is directed by them, so is rebirth by the Apostles."

And someone else pointed out that the High Priest had an object with 12 stars that both Josephus and Philo said came from the Zodiac.

The "Twelve" with its obvious astrological connotations --- are we looking at people justifying the 12 by pointing to astrology or justifying the 12 by erasing the astrological origins with a tale that they relate to the 12 tribes.....

I submit it is not as simple as it looks.

Vorkosigan

dog-on

On it's surface, it seems the most likely answer is that the 12 represented the Jews, who, according to Mark, simply did not get it. Later on, in the rewrites, the 12 become the historical anchor.

Nathan Poe

Or perhaps it's a lot simpler.

Were the twelve related to the twelve tribes? historically, no -- assuming they even existed, by symbolically, without a doubt.

Solo

Right, and further (in Mark) one of the symbolic members of the house of Israel delivers Jesus up. House divided, curtain in the temple torn in two....nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Best
Jiri