Raj

Does the Atma or soul exist?

This question is an off-shoot of an intense, 1 hour 30 min debate I had with this Hindu pundit/scholar on God, the point of existence, death, reincarnation, right and wrong, and humanity in general.

His main contention, circulated around a fundamental, that he never proved or justified to me, that life, even insects, have a soul.

He used an anaology that life is like a journey in a car, and our body is the engine, and the soul/atma is the driver. When the car's journey's ends, the driver leaves. Like when the journey of life ends; the soul leaves the body.

He used this conjecture as proof to say why a body erodes away almost instantly, as soon as the soul leaves. Even when the brain is still functional.

He further said, that only because of a soul, we can sense our world, have a consciousness, and have free-will.

I of course refuted this, as I refuted every other statement of his. Yet he said to me, that even scientists of today have proven the existence of a soul.

So, what do you think, does the Atma or the soul exist? If it does, can you prove it?

premjan

in a manner of speaking, the soul is merely the software that runs on the human brain hardware. It is the patterns rather than the physical substances that make up our physical body. The patterns are what remain stable and slowly evolve from one generation to another, from one era to another. Of course, it is possible to void the pattern, using Buddhist meditation techniques too, since our software is capable of controlling itself.

Raj

That sounds quite thought provoking Premjan. However, I am asking wether a physical indestructible soul/spirit/atma actually resides in us, and drives us, and then leaves after we die.

Do you think such a soul/atma exists?

premjan

there is surely a pattern of existence embedded within the human being, although the pattern is without a true characteristic essence and consists mainly of idiosyncratic ways of thought.

the pattern enters us through our senses from the moment we are born, is locked into place in our developmental years, and then refined by our education, perhaps erased by our spirituality and we carry it to our deaths. it influences our family and associates even beyond our death. The swirling pattern of information that constitutes us is indeed quite real. If it were not, culture would not exist, people would not have persistent personalities, and there would not be a permanency of thought and ideas.

Raj

That sounds remarkable. However, the pattern you are suggesting, is that not just cultural influences? And thus mankind as a whole, in different geographical locations, evolves different cultures? For instance, if your kin was born in a different culture, he/she would have a completely different "pattern" wrt you, all together.

So this pattern would not be uniform for humanity as a whole.

I think it is an interesting idealogical model for a soul. However what I am referring to, is the notion of the soul as described in Hinduism, of a soul, that drives us, and without which, we would be lifeless and devoid of sentience and will. A soul, that defines our consciousness and which lives on, even after death, with our consciousness.

Does it exist? And can it be proven?

premjan

our mental patterns do "drive us", especially if we are more mentally driven than instinctual people.

the differences are not only cultural. There is an overlay of at least two or three different separable signals: we may call them:

1) personality arising from our unique physical characteristics and our unique developmental history

2) race arising from group genetic characteristics

3) culture originating from group remembered characteristics.

Soul is not a scientific concept. however there is no question that it is a correct concept, when seen in broad outline only.

Moreover, you should realize that human beings, are capable of manipulating their own information patterns. If they believe in reincarnation, they will copy their ancestors. If they do not, then they will behave in a different resulting way.

The real question is one of cause and effect, chicken and egg.

premjan

not really. the disembodied soul is not conscious. However, inasmuch as a human being is architecturally quite general, and we do end up adopting personality characteristics from other people quite often, the soul is hardware independent, much like a java program. in this sense, the soul is "disembodiable" in concept but not disembodied in fact.

Raj

I think you are going off on a tanget here. What you describe to solidy the conception of a soul, is not a soul, but social and evolutionary dynamics - that depend upon -

1: A precursory generation
2: Having a brain to have perception

If either conditions were FALSE, the existence of soul would also become FALSE. However, a soul is undestructible by the Hindu notion. Furthermore, the Hindu Atma exists seperate or disembodied from the biological body. So what you describe is NOT the soul postulated in Hindu theology, or the soul most religions and cultures in the world beleive in.

Further more, what you describe, social and evolutionary dynamics, does not depend upon a "soul" but on the biological or mental faculties of one. Purely by definition and cultural and religious notions, what you state, cannot be called soul.

I am going to ask again, but refine my question. Does the Hindu Atma, as described in Hindu theology, in the literal sense, exist? And can you prove it?

premjan

I don't think it exists literally

Raj

I was having a discussion with someone on the soul, and I must say, I found his theory to be very fascinating and wonderfully imaginative. He suggested, that the soul is like an echo of consciousness and this consciousness pervades all of existence.

Man's mind echos in in space/time, and his mind/soul continues to exist even afer he ceases to humanly exist.

I was just sharing this, as I think it is quite a beautiful, though I would say quite idealogical, concept of a soul.

I can rationalize with this theory on one level however, the mind, and every thought that occurs, are a manifestation of existence, and thus must leave an impression in space/time, however, does that exist as "you" or is it just a virtual time capsule?