James The Least

The Holy Spirit is often personified as female in wisdom literature ... the pneuma is Sophia aka Wisdom. The gospel writers and evangelists seem to be unaware of this, or perhaps they couldn't fathom the idea of Mary getting pregnant by Sophia! :Cheeky:


Odes of Solomon 19

The Holy Spirit opened her womb and mixed the milk of the two breasts of the Father.
And She gave the mixture to the world without their knowing.
And those who received it are in the perfection of the right hand.
The womb of the Virgin caught it, and she received conception and gave birth. . . .


http://stnina.org/print-journal/volu...solomon-ode-19

James The Least

Yes.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Jesus is the Lamb slain since "the foundation of the world." I take that to mean a heavenly realm. It certainly does not mean slain outside Jerusalem in 33 AD.

gurugeorge

Then how do you explain the above quote from 1 Corinthians 12 which shows (amongst other possible interpretations of course) that Paul was favourably discussing what we would nowadays call "occultism". I would define "occultists" as people who take seriously the existence of such things as "spirits" and believe they can be conversed with throught ritual, devotional or meditational means, and the knowledge gained thereby made practical use of (note that Paul is talking about these powers as being properly useful to us, that in itself is a paradigmatically occult approach).

In a sense yes, and when someone thinks something is real (in this case an instance of witnessing) that we know isn't, we call that a vision, don't we? But also, the accounts of the resurrected Jesus we have elsewhere in the gospels include elements that could be construed as "vaguely ghost-like", insubstantial, etc., but the point about a vision is that it can seem really real (like a hallucination), i.e. not vague, ghost-like or insubstantial, but quite physically-real-seeming and normal-looking.

Also, you have to look at the fact that he gets his vision not in Jerusalem or anywhere, but in Egypt, and quite long after the fact. So in any case, we're dealing with the description of a super-powered entity who can die physically, resurrect and appear to people either physically or in more etherial ways, anywhere in time. i.e., a typical occult concept (think of "secret/ascended masters" in New Age literature who have similar abilities).

No that is not all, they are also based on the writings of someone who did live earlier, but who's cult was different from the orthodoxy's, who had a slightly different understanding of what and who Jesus Christ was from orthodoxy's. Yet his writings were well enough known to the kinds of people orthodoxy wished to bring into the fold (i.e. the proto-Gnostics descended from Paul, whoever he was), that they had to be included in the canon to keep them sweet.

Yet at the same time, a distinction had to be made between those proto-Gnostics who did enter the fold, and those who chose to remain beyond the pale, hence "Simon Magus", someone with startlingly similar bio and credentials to "Paul".

In a sense you are right that "Paul" is an orthodox invention. Certainly, he is the invention of a sub-sect of the broader movement, the sub-sect that eventually became what's now known as orthodoxy and catholicism. But the irony is that the writings of this invented character are (and would at the time have been) highly reminiscent of the words of the true founder of this minor cult, Simon Magus - and that would be because they are in fact his words, mangled into a more catholic form.

The reason "Paul" looks a bit tortured and confused is because the "Paul" writings are the writings of a real person, that are being deliberately tortured and confused in an attempt to make them conform to proto-orthodox dogma (i.e., principally, to show that the proto-orthodox had a lineage of people going back to "apostles" who knew the cult deity personally). (Contrast this with "Peter", also an invented character, but his writings can be made up from whole cloth, they're not based on someone else's writings like the "Paul" writings are.)

The double irony here is that they are relying on the writings of a "heretic" (Simon Magus) for their legitimacy (because those writings are oldest, historically respected, and treasured by the proto-Gnostics, whom proto-orthodoxy is trying to attract/co-opt).

The whitewash of Acts/Luke was enough for some, but not for others - "heresy" continued.

aa5874

The Pauline writings are fundamentally about the PHYSICAL VISIT of the Resurrected Jesus to Paul.

The Pauline writer is claiming that he is A WITNESS, not a dreamer, of the Resurrected Jesus.

Look in the VERY SAME 1 Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 15:15 KJV The VERY same Corinthian letter shows that Paul is claiming that he was a WITNESS to a Resuurected Jesus.

If you refuse to accept what is written then I cannot help you.

andrewcriddle

Revelation 13:8 may mean that the elect have had their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world see revelation 13-8 and compare Revelation 17:8.

In any case Revelation 11:8 seems to refer to the crucifixion of Christ in an earthly city probably Jerusalem.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

This has been discussed before on this forum.

One should distinguish between the offering of Christ's blood which occurs within the heavenly temple and the shedding of Christ's blood which occurs previously somewhere else.

Andrew Criddle

aa5874

Myth Jesus, the Son of God, Son of a Holy Ghost, was crucified in Jerusalem in the Myth Fables called Gospels.

That is precisely what is documented in Existing Codices. There is NO reason to guess or speculate.

The Myth Fables called Gospels are CAST in stone.

Jerusalem was the place of the Crucifixion for the son of a Ghost AFTER the trial before the Sanhedrin and Pilate.

See ALL the Myth Fables called Gospels.

Matthew 23:37 KJV

Duvduv

Note the interesting similarity of the expression of killing the prophets found in the Quran chapter on Amram (Imran), chapter 3, verses 21, 112, 181, and chapter 4:155 aside from Luke 13:34.

Duvduv

If revisionists are correct about the material contained in the Quran being from pre-Islamic times, then it is not surprising that the expression of killing the prophets in Luke and Matthew should also be found in the Imran Chapter of the Quran.