Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JohNeo · 09-27-2004, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayman

When I started my thread "You need to understand Islam!", I though that the main problem concerning Islam In the Western World is the lack of knowledge which leads to miss-understand of Islam.
However, I discovered that many Westerns do not accept Islam at all; they do not accept Islam as a religion. What is most important, they do not accept it as different way of life and as a different culture.
The readiness to accept the presence of others and differentiation between people due to their culture is a very important factor in solving the old problem of Western World with Islam.

How well do you think Islam understands secular humanism? Do you really think Islam teaches its followers to accept atheism?

JohNeo

stray bullet · 09-27-2004, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corwin

You're conveniently rationalizing this.

In the cited example Jesus specifically tells his followers to bring anyone who doesn't except him as lord before him and kill them.

That's New Testament. We haven't even STARTED on the old.

Corwin, no where is Jesus suggesting people bring anyone before Him to be executed. No where in recorded history to we see Jesus hurting anyone, nor calling for anyone to be hurt. He was actually betrayed by Judas because His followers wanted him to fight for independence from Rome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg

Don't want to look up the verse right now, but:

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on Earth ... I bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set (blood relatives against each other) and a man's foes will be those of his own household."

Assuming this is the reference Corwin was speaking of, let's put it in context, shall we? If you read in it context, you are seeing Jesus saying that He didn't come expecting everyone to unite and be happy, but that strife and hardship would follow. There would be those that accepted Jesus and those that didn't.

Even 2000 years later, converting in the Middle-East is a horrible hardship. Families would not accept relatives who change beliefs.

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." Matthew 10:33-42

What this is about is hardship, Jesus doesn't expect it to be easy and accepted, but hard and difficult. I seriously hope Corwin is not twisting that horribly to suggest Jesus wants people to kill non-believers.

This is what Jesus said about violence towards the non-believers wanting to kill Him-
"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." - Matthew 26:52

stray bullet · 09-27-2004, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corwin

*comes back to his computer*

By the way.... Luke 19:28 should be... rather enlightening here. Of course the christians will try to rationalize it away just like they did the 'I come bearing a sword' line.

Hypocricy is not your friend.

"After telling this story, Jesus went on toward Jerusalem, walking ahead of his disciples." - Luke 19:28

That was an eye opener...

Corwin · 09-27-2004, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stray bullet

"After telling this story, Jesus went on toward Jerusalem, walking ahead of his disciples." - Luke 19:28

That was an eye opener...

27 then. Unlike some people I'm working from memory here.

Quote:

27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ �?

stray bullet · 09-27-2004, 08:27 PM

The king in the story was harsh... but what exactly do you object to it?

Corwin · 09-27-2004, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stray bullet

The king in the story was harsh... but what exactly do you object to it?

Ahem....

Quote:

Luke, Chapter 19

SAB
19:1
And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
19:2
And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
19:3
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
19:4
And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
19:5
And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
19:6
And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
19:7
And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.
19:8
And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

The Parable of
the Harsh Master
19:11
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
19:12
He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
19:13
And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
19:14
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
19:15
And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
19:16
Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
19:17
And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
19:18
And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19:19
And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
19:20
And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
19:21
For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
19:22
And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
19:23
Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
19:24
And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
19:25
(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
19:26
For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
19:28
And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

From the context.... It's pretty clear who the 'king' Jesus is referring to is.

Putting himself in that role is the only thing that makes the whole parable make any sense in that context.

** edited to remove skepticsannotated's extra text in the selection **

stray bullet · 09-27-2004, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Story of the Ten Servants

12 He said, "A nobleman was called away to a distant empire to be crowned king and then return. 13 Before he left, he called together ten servants and gave them ten pounds of silver* to invest for him while he was gone. 14 But his people hated him and sent a delegation after him to say they did not want him to be their king.
15 "When he returned, b]the king[/b] called in the servants to whom he had given the money. He wanted to find out what they had done with the money and what their profits were. 16 The first servant reported a tremendous gain-ten times as much as the original amount! 17 `Well done!' the king exclaimed. `You are a trustworthy servant. You have been faithful with the little I entrusted to you, so you will be governor of ten cities as your reward.'
18 "The next servant also reported a good gain-five times the original amount. 19 `Well done!' the king said. `You can be governor over five cities.'
20 "But the third servant brought back only the original amount of money and said, `I hid it and kept it safe. 21 I was afraid because you are a hard man to deal with, taking what isn't yours and harvesting crops you didn't plant.'
22 "*`You wicked servant!' the king roared. `Hard, am I? If you knew so much about me and how tough I am, 23 why didn't you deposit the money in the bank so I could at least get some interest on it?' 24 Then turning to the others standing nearby, the king ordered, `Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one who earned the most.'
25 "*`But, master,' they said, `that servant has enough already!'
26 "*`Yes,' the king replied, `but to those who use well what they are given, even more will be given. But from those who are unfaithful,* even what little they have will be taken away. 27 And now about these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king-bring them in and execute them right here in my presence.'*"

It is a parable. What exactly do you have objection to?

Corwin · 09-27-2004, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stray bullet

It is a parable. What exactly do you have objection to?

Quote:

19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Again.... given that this Jesus person of yours is clearly putting himself in the role of the speaker... it's a commandment of violence.

Quote:

19:14
But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Remember he's telling this story to his followers as they all travel to Jerusalem, where the 'King of Kings' isn't likely to be well recieved. And probably knows it.

sphinx wui · 09-27-2004, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Sindi wrote
1.Why do not we hear about terrorists or radicals of Christianity and any other religions? Why it is always attached with the peaceful (?) ISLAM?

Have you ever heard of your criminal founding fathers?
Have you ever heard of Mcveigh?
have you ever heard of the Christian coalition?
Have you ever heard of these names
George Habash
Nayef Hawatma
Hanan Ashrawi

if you don't know them, go get an education but not in a sunday school, i heard that they use to molest young kids.

Quote:

Sindi wrote
2.Honor killing is the most inhuman and most disgraceful act by any human standard.This horrendous episode is only present in the Muslim countries and Muslim societies.Tell me, please, why Muslims only perform this heinous act? Why this act is totally absent in Christianity any other religions?

Cause Christians are busy fucking young kids in churches

Quote:

Sindi wrote
3.Why Jihad belongs to only Islam?

Why America has an army?

Quote:

Sindi wrote
4.Why it is the only Muslims committing the horrendous acts of suicide bombing? Why , for exemple, there is no suicide bomber evolved out of Christian-born Palestinians?

Suicide bombers are defensive act against your criminal country and its puppet Israel
if Hitler is the only Christian by product, i think this guy is enough to shut up any Christian.

Quote:

Sindi wrote
5.Punishments for the crime (like stealing, adultery, killings etc.) in Islamic paradise according to Allah’s laws are cutting/chopping hands, feet and even chopping heads, or stoning death and lashings one hundred and one times. My questions here are: could we find such ancient uncivilized/draconian laws in any other religions today? If the answer is no, then please tell us why?

Have you ever read the fucked up OT

Quote:

Sindi wrote
And there are many other questions. I don't think at all that we can compare Christianity (or any other religion) to Islam.

For sure we can't compare a son of a whore like jesus, a jobless village idiot who kept ranting about peace cause he couldn't do any better with Mohamed.

by the way, why only Christians molest young kids?

queser · 09-28-2004, 03:10 AM

number of muslims also grow because of many reverts in western and european countries.

i personally know more than 20 and know of much more

i am sure most muslims know of at least one revert or know one revert

imagine all the growth considering there are millions of muslims

imagine the revert number could be more than the birth rate in some european countries soon

dont that just scare you infidels

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09-27-2004, 08:27 PM	#85
stray bullet Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Where God wills me. Posts: 1,155	The king in the story was harsh... but what exactly do you object to it?

09-28-2004, 03:10 AM	#90
queser Banned Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: europe Posts: 618	number of muslims also grow because of many reverts in western and european countries. i personally know more than 20 and know of much more i am sure most muslims know of at least one revert or know one revert imagine all the growth considering there are millions of muslims imagine the revert number could be more than the birth rate in some european countries soon dont that just scare you infidels

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