Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Killer Mike · 11-07-2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorsHammer

This is addressed to believers and nonbelievers:
As a nonbeliever in the supernatural (which includes all dieties), I am curious as to why over 95% of humans hold onto one or more supernatural beliefs - even though they may agree that their beliefs are irrational. Specifically, how do you rationalize your beliefs ?

A good book "Why We Believe" by Michael Shermer. Also I would question the 95% figure. When one consideres countries like China, Russia, Ukraine which are 95% atheist/agnostic I would tend to be somewhat skeptical. I mean there are well over 1 billion people in China alone! Granted a majority have some belief in god, but I do not think it is as high as 95%. Does anyone know for sure?

danrael · 11-07-2005, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstrats

danrael,

re: “I don’t think so...It is almost an oxymoron that anyone would consciously choose to adopt a belief system about the nature of reality.�?

So when you used the phrase --- “I choose to believe�? --- what did you intend that to mean?

There are two states of consciousness which "choose": the first, which I will call the conditioned mind, is the ordinary mind of most people, which makes them believe that they are making a free choice, when, in fact, their "choice" is really fear-driven. It is the ego which is in control here, full of rationalizations. The second state of consciousness is one in which the individual is self-aware, and is looking at the "choices" involved with an open mind, without preferences or preconceptions. It is this mind which I am saying would "choose" neither to "believe" nor "not-believe", knowing that either "choice" would be unwise. This is the mind driven not by fear, but by the intellect.

danrael · 11-07-2005, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seebs

I would have to disagree. There are many things about which I can reasonably establish my ignorance. I have made the decision to adopt certain models and assumptions because, well, I like to. It pleases me to imagine that there is stuff I interact with, that I can tell good writing from bad, or that my friends genuinely care for me. I can show you the "reasons" for which I believe these things, but it's quite easy to establish that everything I believe comes down to untrusted claims, and in particular, to assumptions about the reliability of my senses and memory.

To make it more interesting, I am quite able to demonstrate that either my senses or memory are inaccurate, or more likely both.

But what else can I do?

Nurture a higher state of consciousness which will make it easier to deal with the conditions of our socialization/indoctrination which you have described.

"Nothing we see or hear is perfect; yet there, in the midst of imperfection, lies perfect reality."
Shunryu Suzuki

danrael · 11-07-2005, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorsHammer

Yes. Atheist would also like to believe in such things, but they know that they would only be fooling themselves, whereas theists have convinced themselves into believing the absurd.

How can this make sense? I am assuming that if one chooses to be an atheist, it is a source of fullfilment and satisfaction to him, after all, one is making the wiser choice, no? So, if that is the case, then why would atheists "like to believe in such things", as you say? Are they discontented? If I am incorrect here, then what does an atheist find satisfying about his way of life?

Why do you think theists would rather believe that happiness which can only be attained in some future world, rather than in the present world of everyday reality?

ThorsHammer · 11-08-2005, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danrael

How can this make sense? I am assuming that if one chooses to be an atheist, it is a source of fullfilment and satisfaction to him, after all, one is making the wiser choice, no? So, if that is the case, then why would atheists "like to believe in such things", as you say? Are they discontented? If I am incorrect here, then what does an atheist find satisfying about his way of life?

Why do you think theists would rather believe that happiness which can only be attained in some future world, rather than in the present world of everyday reality?

Maybe this example will clear things up. Say that an atheist and a theist bought lottery tickets. Both wish that they are the winner, but only the theist will pray to his god to make it happen.

rstrats · 11-08-2005, 10:54 AM

danrael,

re: “The second state of consciousness is one in which the individual is self-aware, and is looking at the ‘choices’ involved with an open mind, without preferences or preconceptions. It is this mind which I am saying would ‘choose’ neither to ‘believe’ nor ‘not-believe’, knowing that either ‘choice’ would be unwise.�?

Unwise perhaps, but COULD they consciously CHOOSE to believe?

danrael · 11-10-2005, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThorsHammer

Maybe this example will clear things up. Say that an atheist and a theist bought lottery tickets. Both wish that they are the winner, but only the theist will pray to his god to make it happen.

Your analogy of a lottery carries the implication that there is something to "get" or "win". The theist makes no bones about that: he is gambling his all to try to get to his imagined heaven. What is it that the atheist hopes to win? (Zen people refer to this condition as entertaining a "gaining idea", which is actually an obstacle to realization of that which one already is in possession of.)

danrael · 11-10-2005, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstrats

danrael,

re: “The second state of consciousness is one in which the individual is self-aware, and is looking at the ‘choices’ involved with an open mind, without preferences or preconceptions. It is this mind which I am saying would ‘choose’ neither to ‘believe’ nor ‘not-believe’, knowing that either ‘choice’ would be unwise.�?

Unwise perhaps, but COULD they consciously CHOOSE to believe?

I think that beliefs are the result of thought processes driven by the the emotions, resulting in poor choices, as the mind is enslaved by desires, whereas really viable choices are arrived at via a free and open intellect. In the case we are discussing, it is impossible to make a determination either way, (ie; to believe or not-believe) so why would an intelligent person "consciously choose to believe", knowing that he simply does not really know. What is the point of choosing to believe something one knows he is uncertain of?

rstrats · 11-10-2005, 07:22 AM

danrael,

re: “...why would an intelligent person ‘consciously choose to believe’, knowing that he simply does not really know. What is the point of choosing to believe something one knows he is uncertain of?�?

It’s clear that I am not articulate enough to express my question, or if I have, not smart enough to understand how your comments are responsive. Thanks for trying, though.

0 · 11-11-2005, 06:43 AM

I believe because of personal experiences and the undertaking of research that has led me to my conclusions.

My two cents,
Tangie

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11-08-2005, 10:54 AM	#76
rstrats Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Missouri Posts: 60	danrael, re: “The second state of consciousness is one in which the individual is self-aware, and is looking at the ‘choices’ involved with an open mind, without preferences or preconceptions. It is this mind which I am saying would ‘choose’ neither to ‘believe’ nor ‘not-believe’, knowing that either ‘choice’ would be unwise.�? Unwise perhaps, but COULD they consciously CHOOSE to believe?

11-10-2005, 07:22 AM	#79
rstrats Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Missouri Posts: 60	danrael, re: “...why would an intelligent person ‘consciously choose to believe’, knowing that he simply does not really know. What is the point of choosing to believe something one knows he is uncertain of?�? It’s clear that I am not articulate enough to express my question, or if I have, not smart enough to understand how your comments are responsive. Thanks for trying, though.

11-11-2005, 06:43 AM	#80
0 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 13,066	I believe because of personal experiences and the undertaking of research that has led me to my conclusions. My two cents, Tangie

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