Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 12-13-2008, 06:08 AM

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Originally Posted by Didymus

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Now, you must know how the first Jesus story began before you propose a theory about the probability of the historical Jesus.

Not so. You don't need to be certain how this or any other story began before you make an educated guess about the accuracy of it. The origin of the story is the core question. If you knew with certainty how the Jesus story began, you would know whether or not Jesus was a historical figure. So there'd be no need for to "propose a theory" about the probability of his historicity.

If we have absolute, bulletproof knowledge about something, theories are unnecessary. They are always proposed in the face of uncertainty, and that's as it should be.

The uncertain credibility of Jesus sources is what removes the question of Jesus historicity from the realm of certainty. (Keep in mind that the Jesus in question is not a god-man who rose from the dead, but a human being who fits the description set forth in the OP. And that the gospel writers did include in their writings some historical facts confirmed by multiple sources external to Christianity.) In the absence of certitude, we can only deal with the gospels, and to a much lesser degree Paul, in terms of probabilities - or, if you prefer, improbabilities.

Since we are in the realm of probabilities rather than certainties, it's perfectly reasonable to assign a "credibility value" to the primary sources of the Jesus story, the gospel writers. For example, I think the likelihood that the gospels are mainly fictitious is greater than 95%, so I voted "Less than 20%" on the poll.

Ddms

But, you are contradicting yourself. You are reasonable certain that the Jesus stories are fiction ,i.e, you must really think you know how the Jesus story began, that is why your percentage of probability is so low for Jesus of the NT.

And, it is unreasonable to try to deny me of my probability because I put it at ZERO or at the level of impossibility. I, just like you, think I know how the Jesus story began, based on the NT and the church writers. That is all the information we have about Jesus, except for forgeries in Josephus.

Jesus believers did not pray to, or worship as Gods, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, Herod or Caesar, they did not worsip humans, Jesus believers only worship Gods.

If Jesus was just human, he would not have been worshipped as a God, and prayed to for forgiveness of sin. It would have been blasphemy, irreligious and dishonest for Jesus believers to have worshipped Jesus, a mere preacher, as a God, while at the same time claim that pagans were evil for worshipping mere humans as Gods.

According to Jesus story writers, Agrippa was instantly killed by God because he was called God, and he was not.

Jesus of the NT must have been a God during the time of Tiberius. And Gods are myths. Myths are impossible or have ZERO probability of existence.

Jesus of the NT was impossible.

Didymus · 12-14-2008, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, you are contradicting yourself. You are reasonable certain that the Jesus stories are fiction ,i.e, you must really think you know how the Jesus story began, that is why your percentage of probability is so low for Jesus of the NT.

All these imperatives! I don't know the origin of the Paul Bunyan stories, but I can still give a low or zero probability to their being historically accurate.

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And, it is unreasonable to try to deny me of my probability because I put it at ZERO or at the level of impossibility.

Heaven forbid I should deny you your zero probability!

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I, just like you, think I know how the Jesus story began, based on the NT and the church writers. That is all the information we have about Jesus, except for forgeries in Josephus.

No, not just like me. I don't think I know how the Jesus story began. I have some ideas on the subject, but none rise to the level of 100% certainty. And, as Mountainman correctly points out, the early non-canonical "apocryphal" writings are pieces of the puzzle that need to be taken into account.

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If Jesus was just human, he would not have been worshipped as a God, and prayed to for forgiveness of sin.

Are you also certain of that? Is it so unusual that charismatic individuals would be thought to have divine origins? Ancient and primitive cultures are replete with such beliefs.

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Jesus of the NT was impossible.

Agreed. But that was not the poll question. It didn't encompass the entire NT; it specified an individual with these characteristics:

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Originally Posted by DNAReplicator

1. An individual named or known as Jesus (Yeshua).
2. From, or associated with Nazareth
3. Politically and/or religiously active Jew.
4. With disciples/followers in his lifetime
5. Crucified by the Roman authorities between about 20-40AD.

Is it flat-out impossible that such an individual existed? I don't think so.

Ddms

aa5874 · 12-14-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Didymus

Agreed. But that was not the poll question. It didn't encompass the entire NT; it specified an individual with these characteristics:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNAReplicator

1. An individual named or known as Jesus (Yeshua).
2. From, or associated with Nazareth
3. Politically and/or religiously active Jew.
4. With disciples/followers in his lifetime
5. Crucified by the Roman authorities between about 20-40AD.

Is it flat-out impossible that such an individual existed? I don't think so.

Ddms

But isn't the information presented about Jesus of the NT? Do you want me to ignore or disregard the information that shows that Jesus was impossible just to erroneously claim he is possible?

Achilles is possible if we disregard all the information that clearly depicted him as a myth. And God too, if we ignore his Divinity.

Elijah · 12-14-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In order for Jesus believers to worship and pray to Jesus, he must be a God, not a King. Jesus believers do not worship or pray to Kings or Emperors, they only worship and pray to God.

Jesus must be a God, not a King, to be worshipped and prayed to by Jesus believers.

Tertullian in Ad Nationes

Quote:

...We do not call the Emperor GOD....

Are you actually citing an example of a known historical figure being referred to as a god, to argue against a possible historical figure being referred to in a similar manner?

aa5874 · 12-14-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In order for Jesus believers to worship and pray to Jesus, he must be a God, not a King. Jesus believers do not worship or pray to Kings or Emperors, they only worship and pray to God.

Jesus must be a God, not a King, to be worshipped and prayed to by Jesus believers.

Tertullian in Ad Nationes

Are you actually citing an example of a known historical figure being referred to as a god, to argue against a possible historical figure being referred to in a similar manner?

Jesus believers only worship and pray to Gods. Jesus must have been a God for Jesus believers to worship and ask for forgiveness of sins.

There is no indication anywhere in the NT or from any church writer that Jesus believers asked Paul, Peter, the disciples, Stephen, Herod, Tiberius or even James the so-called brother of Jesus to forgive their sins because all these people were presented as mere humans.

Jesus was presented as a God, conceived of the Holy Ghost, transfigured, resurrected, ascended through the clouds, witnessed by a woman called Mary, an angel called Gabriel, his disciples and thousands of followers.

The authors of the NT produced witnesses for fiction, an impossibilty. No one can be a witness to fiction.

Mark 2.5-7

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When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son thy sins be forgiven thee

And there were certain of the scribes........reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man speak blasphemies, who can forgive sins but God only?

Jesus was born God, that is impossible.

Elijah · 12-14-2008, 02:27 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Jesus believers only worship and pray to Gods. Jesus must have been a God for Jesus believers to worship and ask for forgiveness of sins.

From your example, was Caesar a god or a human?

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And there were certain of the scribes........reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man speak blasphemies, who can forgive sins but God only?

A determinist can also forgive sins.

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Jesus was born God, that is impossible.

Depends on your understanding of the concepts involved. How do you understand the Logos that he is personifying?

mountainman · 12-14-2008, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Jesus was born God, that is impossible.

Dear aa5874,

There was an age when Jesus was not.
Before Jesus was born he was not.

When do these terms become a contraversial political reality?
Was Eusebius a midwife?

Best wishes,

Pete

aa5874 · 12-14-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Jesus believers only worship and pray to Gods. Jesus must have been a God for Jesus believers to worship and ask for forgiveness of sins.

From your example, was Caesar a god or a human?

Jesus believers refused to worship and did not ask the Emperor to forgive their sins because they considered him to be human. And it would have been completely dishonest, blasphemous and even stupid for Jesus believers to have called Jesus a God knowing full well that he was only human and then to be persecuted and killed for worshipping and praying to a man, the very same evil and blasphemous practise of pagans.

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Jesus was born God, that is impossible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Depends on your understanding of the concepts involved. How do you understand the Logos that he is personifying?

I understand Jesus of the NT as impossible.

Why do you refuse to accept that the NT and the church writers presented Jesus as a God with divine powers?

These writers claimed Jesus ascended through clouds and that the event was witnessed by disciples. They claimed Jesus brought back to life dead prophets, and was transfigured, and that it was witnessed by Peter, James and John.

The author of gJohn claimed Jesus existed before the world began as the Word, and that the Word was God. Later, the very same author claimed the Word created the world and became flesh and dwelt among us.

Now, these things are understood to be impossible, but Jesus of the NT did those things with witnesses.

The impossibility of Jesus is confirmed.

Elijah · 12-14-2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Jesus believers refused to worship and did not ask the Emperor to forgive their sins because they considered him to be human. And it would have been completely dishonest, blasphemous and even stupid for Jesus believers to have called Jesus a God knowing full well that he was only human and then to be persecuted and killed.

The point is that it was that they were calling a human (their authority) a god. If you took the time to understand Christianity under a political light then it would probably make sense to you that Jesus is given titles like Lord and Son of God if you can see Christianity as an anti imperial cult.

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I understand Jesus of the NT as impossible.

The legends surrounding Jesus or the historical core is impossible?

No Robots · 12-14-2008, 09:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

If you'd read the books, not the blurbs (let alone amazon reviews!) you'd know.

It's just that I don't see how these works are a rebuttal to anything that was said here. Certainly people should read the material relevant to the subject, but ridiculing people for not having read done so seems a little cruel. And perhaps these works are not really pertinent. Rather than posting drive-by bibliographies, wouldn't it be better just to make helpful suggestions for reading, with some brief explanation of why you recommend the works, perhaps with a brief quotation? After all:

And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.--Mt. 5:22

View Poll Results: What do you think the probability of a historical Jesus is?
100% - I have complete faith that Jesus of Nazareth was a real person.	8	6.15%
80-100%	10	7.69%
60-80%	15	11.54%
40-60%	22	16.92%
20-40%	17	13.08%
0-20%	37	28.46%
o% - I have complete faith that Jesus of Nazareth was not a real person,	21	16.15%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

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