Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John A. Broussard · 07-07-2005, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badger3k

I didn't know they back-dated it (or would that be "grandfathering" - "popefathering?"). Heck, to be honest, they never taught us that the doctrine didn't really come about so recently either, so we were never introduced to such an idea until I got out of the scam. Is there early reference to infallibility in these pronouncements you found or is this also some backwards history? By this I mean did the pronouncement itself, at the time, say that it was infallible? The only one I think I heard about was done shortly (10-20 years?) prior to the infallibility doctrine - what the writer said was basically this tested the water of the idea, to consolidate the Pope's (and therefore the RC Church's) power and authority.

Trying to get the "official" dogma from the Catholic Church is like pinning jello to a wall. I usually google the Catholic Encyclopedia, but there are other sources which produce conflicting "dogma."

The Church does emphasize that infallibility was conferred upon Peter by Jesus and that the infallible pronouncements of the 19th and 20th centuries are merely more explicitly stated as being infallible.

The pronouncement I'm most familiar with the Immaculate Conception of 1854, but it was years after that that the Church officially defined papal infallibility.

Go figure.

badger3k · 07-07-2005, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Trying to get the "official" dogma from the Catholic Church is like pinning jello to a wall. I usually google the Catholic Encyclopedia, but there are other sources which produce conflicting "dogma."

The Church does emphasize that infallibility was conferred upon Peter by Jesus and that the infallible pronouncements of the 19th and 20th centuries are merely more explicitly stated as being infallible.

The pronouncement I'm most familiar with the Immaculate Conception of 1854, but it was years after that that the Church officially defined papal infallibility.

Go figure.

Thanks - that's basically what I thought.

When I said "official" I was only referring to the Roman Catholic Church, even though the Pope is supposed to speak for everyone who claimms to be Catholic or Christian, at least according to his PR.

Huon · 07-07-2005, 08:24 AM

The Vatican I Council was summoned by Pius IX (Mastaï-Ferretti). It met 8 December, 1869, and lasted till 18 July, 1870, when it was adjourned. There were present 6 archbishop-princes, 49 cardinals, 11 patriarchs, 680 archbishops and bishops, 28 abbots, 29 generals of orders, in all 803 (oops !). Besides important canons relating to the Faith and the constitution of the Church, the council decreed the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra, i.e. when he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.

This Vatican I Council followed the Council of Trent (1545-1563).

Vatican II Council was summoned by John XXIII. It met 11 October 1962 and lasted till 8 December 1965.

Look Catholic Encyclopedia for more precisions, but keep your critical mind, especially when they say that something is "evident", or "obvious".

07-07-2005, 08:24 AM	#103
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Twentieth Ecumenical Council: Vatican I (1869-1870) The Vatican I Council was summoned by Pius IX (Mastaï-Ferretti). It met 8 December, 1869, and lasted till 18 July, 1870, when it was adjourned. There were present 6 archbishop-princes, 49 cardinals, 11 patriarchs, 680 archbishops and bishops, 28 abbots, 29 generals of orders, in all 803 (oops !). Besides important canons relating to the Faith and the constitution of the Church, the council decreed the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra, i.e. when he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church. This Vatican I Council followed the Council of Trent (1545-1563). Vatican II Council was summoned by John XXIII. It met 11 October 1962 and lasted till 8 December 1965. Look Catholic Encyclopedia for more precisions, but keep your critical mind, especially when they say that something is "evident", or "obvious".

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