Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 10-31-2009, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimBowe

Academic support holds meaning for me.

For me, academic support means lots of things, but infallibility isn't one of them.

Doug Shaver · 10-31-2009, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holly3278

If the resurrection didn't truly happen, then why were the apostles willing to die for a lie?

Why do you think the apostles died, and why do you think it?

TimBowe · 10-31-2009, 06:58 AM

Quote:

If the resurrection didn't truly happen, then why were the apostles willing to die for a lie?

There isn't one piece of evidence for that, I hear that claim a lot, but having read every Christian source from the first five hundred years of Christianity, I'd like you to tell me what the piece of evidence is that the disciples died for their belief in the resurrection.

aa5874 · 10-31-2009, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimBowe

Quote:

If the resurrection didn't truly happen, then why were the apostles willing to die for a lie?

There isn't one piece of evidence for that, I hear that claim a lot, but having read every Christian source from the first five hundred years of Christianity, I'd like you to tell me what the piece of evidence is that the disciples died for their belief in the resurrection.

The Church writers claimed some disciples died for their belief. And the same Church writers recorded that the disciples believed in the resurrection of Jesus.

This is the preface to De Principiis by Origen.

Quote:

..4. The particular points clearly delivered in the teaching of the apostles are as follow:—

First, That there is one God, who created and arranged all things, and who, when nothing existed, called all things into being— God from the first creation and foundation of the world......

Secondly, That Jesus Christ Himself, who came (into the world), was born of the Father before all creatures;

that, after He had been the servant of the Father in thecreation of all things— "For by Him were all things made" — He in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was;

that He assumed a body like to our own, differing in this respect only,

that it was born of a virgin and of the Holy Spirit:

that this Jesus Christ was truly born, and did truly suffer, and did not endure this death common (to man) in appearance only, but did truly die;

that He did truly rise from the dead; and that after His resurrection He conversed with His disciples, and was taken up (into heaven).

See http://www.newadvent.org

Kapyong · 10-31-2009, 03:52 PM

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holly3278

If the resurrection didn't truly happen, then why were the apostles willing to die for a lie?

Who claimed anyone had to die for a lie?
The apostles who met Jesus were just part of the STORY.

You question is like saying :
"Why did Samwise follow Frodo, if Frodo was fictional?"

Or :
"Why did Harry Potter risk his life facing a lie (Voldemort)?"

There is no evidence Jesus had 12 followers.
None of them left any writings.
Not one of the NT books were written by anyone who ever met a historical Jesus.
We do not have even one authentic claim to have met Jesus.

(Anyway - people DO die for false beliefs - suicide bombers, Heaven's Gate cult etc.)

K.

aa5874 · 11-01-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

.....(Anyway - people DO die for false beliefs - suicide bombers, Heaven's Gate cult etc.)

K.

But, if you think about it, that is not really the case.

These people died because they think their beliefs were true.

You may think their beliefs are false but they did not and it is for that precise reason they do these acts.

However, in the case of the supposed disciples of Jesus, if Jesus was indeed human and did die, it would be expected that the disciples must have known or found out that he did not resurrect.

If they propagated that Jesus did resurrect when he did not and these disciples were killed, then they may have really died for a lie.

If some one today claimed Jesus resurrected 2000 years ago, it can be a belief. On the other hand, if someone, 2000 years ago, stated Jesus resurrected, it may indeed be a lie.

J-D · 11-02-2009, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

.....(Anyway - people DO die for false beliefs - suicide bombers, Heaven's Gate cult etc.)

K.

But, if you think about it, that is not really the case.

These people died because they think their beliefs were true.

You may think their beliefs are false but they did not and it is for that precise reason they do these acts.

However, in the case of the supposed disciples of Jesus, if Jesus was indeed human and did die, it would be expected that the disciples must have known or found out that he did not resurrect.

Must have? That isn't necessarily so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

If they propagated that Jesus did resurrect when he did not and these disciples were killed, then they may have really died for a lie.

If some one today claimed Jesus resurrected 2000 years ago, it can be a belief. On the other hand, if someone, 2000 years ago, stated Jesus resurrected, it may indeed be a lie.

May, yes; must, no.

aa5874 · 11-02-2009, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, if you think about it, that is not really the case.

These people died because they think their beliefs were true.

You may think their beliefs are false but they did not and it is for that precise reason they do these acts.

However, in the case of the supposed disciples of Jesus, if Jesus was indeed human and did die, it would be expected that the disciples must have known or found out that he did not resurrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D[I

Must[/I] have? That isn't necessarily so.

Why would the disciples of a real human, after he was killed and buried, not be expected to know that he did not resurrect or have found out that he was not raised from the dead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

If they propagated that Jesus did resurrect when he did not and these disciples were killed, then they[b] may have really died for a lie.

If some one today claimed Jesus resurrected 2000 years ago, it can be a belief. On the other hand, if someone, 2000 years ago, stated Jesus resurrected, it may indeed be a lie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

May, yes; must, no.

Well, you are only repeating what I have already written.

I expected you to see the word "may". I will increase the size of the letters. Please read carefully.

J-D · 11-02-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, if you think about it, that is not really the case.

These people died because they think their beliefs were true.

You may think their beliefs are false but they did not and it is for that precise reason they do these acts.

However, in the case of the supposed disciples of Jesus, if Jesus was indeed human and did die, it would be expected that the disciples must have known or found out that he did not resurrect.

Why would the disciples of a real human, after he was killed and buried, not be expected to know that he did not resurrect or have found out that he was not raised from the dead?

Why are you asking me? You're the one with the expectation, and so far you've shown no basis for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

May, yes; must, no.

Well, you are only repeating what I have already written.

I expected you to see the word "may". I will increase the size of the letters. Please read carefully.

No, I'm not repeating what you wrote, I'm responding to it. I saw the word 'may' without any need for you to increase the letters. I also saw where you used the word 'must' earlier. Hence my response.

aa5874 · 11-02-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Why would the disciples of a real human, after he was killed and buried, not be expected to know that he did not resurrect or have found out that he was not raised from the dead?

Why are you asking me? You're the one with the expectation, and so far you've shown no basis for it.

What can you see?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Well, you are only repeating what I have already written.

I expected you to see the word "may". I will increase the size of the letters. Please read carefully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

No, I'm not repeating what you wrote, I'm responding to it. I saw the word 'may' without any need for you to increase the letters. I also saw where you used the word 'must' earlier. Hence my response.

I am not sure since you made this statement after I increased the size.

And your opinion has no effect whatsoever on my position that "if Jesus was indeed human and did die, it would be expected that the disciples must have known or found out that he did not resurrect."

The disciples of Jesus, once they existed, in Acts of the Apostles propagated that Jesus was resurrected, it LOGICALLY follows that IT IS EXPECTED they must have known or had found out whether the resurrection did indeed happen.

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