Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 05-13-2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

Anyone else heard of this one? It's be good if anyone else who has heard it could speak up so that we can gauge how widespread it is.

I believe it is Protestant in origin and possibly specifically Methodist. The church of my childhood served grape juice for communion.

ConservativeAtheist · 05-13-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theophage

How about Joshua's Long Day?

Good one.

I guess the entry in the list would go:
"The 'long day' described in Joshua 10 really happened and this has been proven by NASA computers."

The website's own words are probably pretty good for the explanation too.

Actually, the claim that astronomical calculations proved that a day was “missing” began over a century ago. In the last few decades, the myth has been embellished with NASA computers performing those calculations.

No one who repeats this story has ever provided details of these calculations—how exactly was this missing day discovered? This should automatically make people cautious. How could you detect a missing day unless you had a fixed reference point before this day?

In fact, we would need to cross check between both astronomical and historical records to detect any missing day. And to detect a missing 40 minutes requires that these reference points are known to within an accuracy of a few minutes.

It is certainly true that the timing of solar eclipses observable from a certain location can be known precisely. But the ancient records did not record time that precisely, so the required cross check is simply not possible.

However, I find it hilarious that they finish with:

Quote:

There is so much good evidence for the truth of creation and the Bible that we don't need to resort to embellishments and urban myths.

All they rely on is embellishments and myths. :devil1:

Toto · 05-13-2008, 10:26 AM

There is an essay by Bobbie Kirkhart in Everything you know about God is Wrong: the Disinformation Guide to Religion (or via: amazon.co.uk) on her Methodist childhood and the alcohol question. It can be browsed on Amazon.

Quote:

BRIDGING THE LEAP OF FAITH

I grew up in a teetotaling Methodist Church in Oklahoma. This presented a problem, as the Bible is virtually soaked with wine. The miracle at Cana where Jesus turned water into wine, was a particular enigma. Why would a nice young god like Jesus turn pure sweet water into the Devil's drink? Some opined that while he turned water into wine, he didn't drink it. For most, this was not a good enough explanation, as he still enabled others to ruin a perfectly good wedding reception when everyone knows that orange juice concentrate with lemonade, canned pineapple juice, and ginger ale is just perfect for the occasion. . .

Joe Bloe · 05-13-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

Kamilos is listed in the online Lewis and Short, but with the note that it's possibly coined from the Matthew phrase!

Now that's classic. :rolling:

I just looked into it more closely, and I think that is right. 'kamilos' is similar to 'kalos', but it doesn't look like there is evidence that it was a real word. It appears to be (almost) the name of a person briefly mentioned in Appias's "The Civil Wars" ('Kamilon', transliterated as 'Camillus'). But Perseus Project didn't turn up any other uses, nothing that uses it to mean "rope."

Joe Bloe · 05-13-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

Anyone else heard of this one? It's be good if anyone else who has heard it could speak up so that we can gauge how widespread it is.

I'm going to put the claim in bold here:
"Jesus turned water into grape juice, not wine."

Yea, growing up among Southern Baptists I heard that a few times.

Why do you always take two Southern Baptists with you on a fishing trip?
Because if you took just one, he'd drink all your beer.

Newfie · 05-13-2008, 11:17 AM

If we are talking about Christian urban legends then one of the bigger ones has to be the War in Heaven. Many believe this tale, that Satan tried to stage a coup against God by leading one third of the angels into revolt, which is retold in Paradise Lost, but not in the Bible. Descriptions of Hell’s levels are also widely taken as articles of faith, even though they are also accepted as fictional.

Another famous mistranslation resulted in Michelangelo's Moses having horns because one of the biblical translations of "rays of light" became "horns" in Italian.

I grew up Catholic and (bless their little hearts) the nuns renounced the whole “grape juice” theory about the wine. In their opinion, the wine had to be alcoholic because it was mixed with the drinking water in order to kill the microbes and other nasty stuff that would make you sick otherwise. That ordinary wine was alcoholic does not seem to be in dispute. Why caution people against drunkenness otherwise? At the wedding ceremony where Jesus changes the water into wine his creation is regarded as much finer wine then what the guests had been enjoying up to that time, which definitely doesn’t suggest that it was watered-down.

I also heard that Jesus’ hair being long had more to do with his association with John the Baptist than Zeus. John’s image was well known to be a bit ragged, and his “religious look” may have been handed down to Jesus and even his disciples. I remember a professor once mentioning that the first “crucifix” image of Jesus actually had the head of a donkey, and was meant as a put down. Finally, one interpretation has Joseph being more like a modern-day contractor than a humble carpenter.

Comments?

Lugubert · 05-13-2008, 11:29 AM

I'm normally not too impressed by any claims that Syriac rules, but on the camel question, I think that item 3 here makes good points. No need to resort to Greek; Aramaic in the Syriac font makes the confusion understandable.

Lugubert · 05-13-2008, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfie

Finally, one interpretation has Joseph being more like a modern-day contractor than a humble carpenter.

His Greek title could mean anything from a possibly poor stonemason through carpenter to a possibly wealthy architect.

andrewcriddle · 05-13-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfie

If we are talking about Christian urban legends then one of the bigger ones has to be the War in Heaven. Many believe this tale, that Satan tried to stage a coup against God by leading one third of the angels into revolt, which is retold in Paradise Lost, but not in the Bible.

This is based on Revelation chapter 12

Quote:

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: .................................................
.................................................. ............................
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Andrew Criddle

Solitary Man · 05-13-2008, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anders

I'm normally not too impressed by any claims that Syriac rules, but on the camel question, I think that item 3 here makes good points. No need to resort to Greek; Aramaic in the Syriac font makes the confusion understandable.

What's the evidence again that GML meant camel's hair rope? An anonymous 10th century lexicographer?

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05-13-2008, 11:17 AM	#56
Newfie Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,457	If we are talking about Christian urban legends then one of the bigger ones has to be the War in Heaven. Many believe this tale, that Satan tried to stage a coup against God by leading one third of the angels into revolt, which is retold in Paradise Lost, but not in the Bible. Descriptions of Hell’s levels are also widely taken as articles of faith, even though they are also accepted as fictional. Another famous mistranslation resulted in Michelangelo's Moses having horns because one of the biblical translations of "rays of light" became "horns" in Italian. I grew up Catholic and (bless their little hearts) the nuns renounced the whole “grape juice” theory about the wine. In their opinion, the wine had to be alcoholic because it was mixed with the drinking water in order to kill the microbes and other nasty stuff that would make you sick otherwise. That ordinary wine was alcoholic does not seem to be in dispute. Why caution people against drunkenness otherwise? At the wedding ceremony where Jesus changes the water into wine his creation is regarded as much finer wine then what the guests had been enjoying up to that time, which definitely doesn’t suggest that it was watered-down. I also heard that Jesus’ hair being long had more to do with his association with John the Baptist than Zeus. John’s image was well known to be a bit ragged, and his “religious look” may have been handed down to Jesus and even his disciples. I remember a professor once mentioning that the first “crucifix” image of Jesus actually had the head of a donkey, and was meant as a put down. Finally, one interpretation has Joseph being more like a modern-day contractor than a humble carpenter. Comments?

05-13-2008, 11:29 AM	#57
Lugubert Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Western Sweden Posts: 3,684	I'm normally not too impressed by any claims that Syriac rules, but on the camel question, I think that item 3 here makes good points. No need to resort to Greek; Aramaic in the Syriac font makes the confusion understandable.

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