Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sarpedon · 10-02-2006, 08:12 AM

Discussion of Biblical Prophesies is traditionally done in the Biblical Criticism and History forum; So accordingly, I'm moving it thither.

Amaleq13 · 10-02-2006, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colby

How do you feel/explain about passages written in the old testiment that prophecize the comming and crucifiction of jesus and/or events taking place today?

The short answer is that they don't "prophecize" any such thing but Christians have creatively read such predictions into the texts.

Decypher · 10-02-2006, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colby

I guess this question is more directed towards athiests. How do you feel/explain about passages written in the old testiment that prophecize the comming and crucifiction of jesus and/or events taking place today?

http://www.100prophecies.org/

I would appreciate to see what you think.

thanks

New Testament prophecy fulfillment claims are so dodgy that they are a strong argument AGAINST the truth of Christianity in my view. Why would a Deity use such suspect prophecy?

Y.B · 10-02-2006, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Incidentally, while I haven't yet gone through all of "100 prophecies", I have noticed that it fails the "Isaiah 7:14 virgin-birth bullshit test". No competent apologist would cite Isaiah 7:14 as an example of a fulfilled prophecy, because there are so MANY problems with this that citing it is a sure sign of fundamentalist delusion:

#1. The word "virgin" does not appear in Isaiah 7:14 (in the original Hebrew): it is a mistranslation in the Greek Septuagint, later exploited by the author of Matthew.

#2. The context makes it quite clear that this was a sign to King Ahaz, some seven centuries earlier. It was apparently "fulfilled" in the next chapter.

#3. There is no independent confirmation that Jesus WAS born of a virgin! Indeed, if this could be proved, it would be sufficiently miraculous in itself to make a "prophecy-fulfillment" superfluous.

Many apologetic sources mention objection #1 in passing (noting that a "young woman" was generally expected to be a virgin), fudge objection #2 with the invented doctrine of "dual-fulfillment" (there is no evidence of such a doctrine in Judaism, it was invented by Christians to excuse Matthew's antics), and mentally blank-out objection #3 altogether: of course Jesus was born of a virgin, everyone knows THAT!

Not to mention, Jesus was never called Immanuel.

Jack the Bodiless · 10-02-2006, 01:33 PM

...Ack. Good point, I had a feeling I'd forgotten something.

hatsoff · 10-02-2006, 02:16 PM

Without reading any further I know this has probably already been adequately answered, but I feel like adding my $0.02, as well...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colby

Bible passage: Deuteronomy 28:65-67
Written: perhaps 1400 BC

Perhaps, indeed! It is quite possible this passage was written as late as 538 BC, in which case any alleged fulfillment prior to that time is easily explainable. But you will see there is an even easier explanation.

Quote:

Fulfilled: 1940s, 1930s, 135 AD, 721 BC, etc.
In Deuteronomy 28:65-67, the Bible said that the people of Israel would be scattered among nations and persecuted. They were exiled and scattered from their homeland in ancient times by the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. The exiles were intensely persecuted in Europe and Russia during the Crusades and Pogroms.

This alleged prophecy is pretty obvious. You could apply it to any "people" and it would hold true. It's comparable to John Edwards saying something like, "I sense suffering in your life."

Most Biblical prophecies are like this. Some others are simply forged after the fact.

Kosh · 10-02-2006, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y.B

Not a single one of those prophecies (or, in many cases "prophecies") is about Jesus - except if you stretch your imagination enough.

Ever wonder why Jews are still Jews?

He he. Thanks for the idea, Y.B.!

Next we get a Fundy in E/C, I'm gonna ask:

"If Christianity evolved from Judaism, then why are there still Jews?"

Back to the scheduled program.

Doug Shaver · 10-02-2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colby

I guess this question is more directed towards athiests. How do you feel/explain about passages written in the old testiment that prophecize the comming and crucifiction of jesus and/or events taking place today?

I don't believe there are any. The site you linked to fails to prove that there are.

DanBZ · 10-02-2006, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

All of the "prophecies" relating to the re-emergence of Israel were written around the time of the Babylonian Captivity, and refer to the ending of that period of exile. Not one of them relates to the events of 1948 and so forth.

Indeed, the re-emergence of Israel, supposedly so hugely significant in "end-times" mumbo-jumbo, is mentioned nowhere in the Book of Revelation, the one book of the Bible that's supposed to be all about the "end-times".

And to make this even more ridiculous, I have heard some fundies try to claim that Israel was conquered by the Jews in 1948 (because some of the aforementioned prophecies mention conquest), rather than being formed by an agreement involving Britain and the early UN.

EssEff · 10-03-2006, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colby

I guess this question is more directed towards athiests. How do you feel/explain about passages written in the old testiment that prophecize the comming and crucifiction of jesus and/or events taking place today?

http://www.100prophecies.org/

I would appreciate to see what you think.

thanks

People who want to believe in fulfillment of a prophesy will interpret events to make it seem that it's been fulfilled. This applies to present-day believers in the Bible, followers of astrology, psychic preditions, etc. as well as early Christians.

Not to mention, there's no independent validation of even one little part of the Christ story, so it's entirely possible that the writers of the Bible used OT tropes to embellish it.

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10-02-2006, 08:12 AM	#11
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	Discussion of Biblical Prophesies is traditionally done in the Biblical Criticism and History forum; So accordingly, I'm moving it thither.

10-02-2006, 01:33 PM	#15
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	...Ack. Good point, I had a feeling I'd forgotten something.

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