Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 05-23-2013, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Arianism was developed mid-1st century.

That's news to me.

What are you using for evidence MrMacson?

The first century has often been referred to as "The Great Silence" on orthodoxy.

The silence about orthodoxy Christian origins extends to the heretics as well.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

gurugeorge · 05-25-2013, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Wow, I've won you over!
So nice that someone here finally listens to me.

Nothing I said there implies there's necessarily any eyewitness evidence in the writings, so I don't know what you're so happy about

Adam · 05-25-2013, 09:56 AM

That there's no Oral Tradition. It's clearly literary sources. That leaves the logical choice between eyewitnesses with substantial (yet limited) veracity vs. conspiratorial lies. That the first "eyewitnesses" do not recount supernaturalism is the opposite of what we would expect if myths about gods were historicized. HJ trumps MJ.

Otherwise deal with it--and show how the sources developed in the way they did, hopefully stating by whom , where, and when.

Sheshbazzar · 05-25-2013, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

It's clearly literary sources. That leaves the logical choice between eyewitnesses with substantial (yet limited) veracity vs. conspiratorial lies.

....vs. a fictional Greek drama composed by an anonymous author, ('Mark') based upon the Hebrew Scriptures and currently popular midrashed messianic sayings, that became wildly popular, was expanded upon repeatedly by other writers, and became the basis of an international fan club and cult for this form of romantic religious fiction literature.
Don't have to 'leave anything out' or 'explain' anything away, with it all being fiction. Gets my vote.

outhouse · 05-25-2013, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

On the contrary....look at what we get in spite of modern communications and education and economic advances.

Recently two educated congressmen were hurling biblical quotes at each other. Believers.

Look at the birthers and the number of people who believe Obama is a closet Muslim.

9/11 and moon landing conspiricists. Crop circle believers eben when the original hoaxsters fessed up.

Us humans are essentially the same superstitious lot as 2000 years ago .It has only been 40 end to end 50 years life spans.

Assume 25 year spans and line up 80 people going back to the first century.

Steve, your response has nothing whatsoever to do with my post. I'm not making any value judgements regarding writing. I'm simply stating that it was rare in the 1st century, and virtually non-existent in some rural areas of Galillee. Information was passed around by oral tradition. Humans began using graphic symbols for their languages about 5,000 years ago, and for the first 2500 years it was done using stone tablets. By the 1st c.of the common era it was still a rare and expensive media. Prior to all this, humans communicated verbally, or with gestures. So, as imperfect as it was, oral tradition was the way most people communicated in 1st century Judea. Because of this, most preaching was done in the form of allegory and parable. Ideas were best spread this way because these stories could convey the idea with the best chance of the idea not being lost after multiple retellings. But the important thing for us to understand is that the art of aral tradition had been perfected for over a 100,000 years, compared to writing which we have only had for 5,000 years. The world of human communication and interaction was completely alien to what we have today.

Exactly

These illiterate people could recite the Torah verbatim and held oral tradition higher then written sources since most couldnt read and write.

steve_bnk · 05-25-2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

On the contrary....look at what we get in spite of modern communications and education and economic advances.

Recently two educated congressmen were hurling biblical quotes at each other. Believers.

Look at the birthers and the number of people who believe Obama is a closet Muslim.

9/11 and moon landing conspiricists. Crop circle believers eben when the original hoaxsters fessed up.

Us humans are essentially the same superstitious lot as 2000 years ago .It has only been 40 end to end 50 years life spans.

Assume 25 year spans and line up 80 people going back to the first century.

Steve, your response has nothing whatsoever to do with my post. I'm not making any value judgements regarding writing. I'm simply stating that it was rare in the 1st century, and virtually non-existent in some rural areas of Galillee. Information was passed around by oral tradition. Humans began using graphic symbols for their languages about 5,000 years ago, and for the first 2500 years it was done using stone tablets. By the 1st c.of the common era it was still a rare and expensive media. Prior to all this, humans communicated verbally, or with gestures. So, as imperfect as it was, oral tradition was the way most people communicated in 1st century Judea. Because of this, most preaching was done in the form of allegory and parable. Ideas were best spread this way because these stories could convey the idea with the best chance of the idea not being lost after multiple retellings. But the important thing for us to understand is that the art of aral tradition had been perfected for over a 100,000 years, compared to writing which we have only had for 5,000 years. The world of human communication and interaction was completely alien to what we have today.

On the contrary simple observation of the world as it is even in our modern western civilization says the cultural processes and myth making has not changed.

Crop circles, ghosts, alien abductions. Even the Global Zionist Conspiracy. Are the worlds banks really controlled by a Jewish cabal in Israel?

At the peak somewhere around 20% believed Obama was a closet Muslim.

An interesting phenomena with Christians. A very deep belief in miracle curess they have neverseen, but have heard about.

In a corporate environment. How do rumors start and take on a life of their own? Ever see what was once a rumor be started as fact months and even yeas later by those who had no possible connection.

Back in the 80s I worked at a company with ariund 8000 people spread over a small city. A manger I knew had guy working fpor him he suspected of having abig mouth. He staed a rumor with that one guy, and eventually heard back at a Rotary Club meeting.

You are hard pressed to assert fundamental human dynamics have changed much in only 2000years. It is not all that many generations.

Tristan Scott · 05-26-2013, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Steve, your response has nothing whatsoever to do with my post. I'm not making any value judgements regarding writing. I'm simply stating that it was rare in the 1st century, and virtually non-existent in some rural areas of Galillee. Information was passed around by oral tradition. Humans began using graphic symbols for their languages about 5,000 years ago, and for the first 2500 years it was done using stone tablets. By the 1st c.of the common era it was still a rare and expensive media. Prior to all this, humans communicated verbally, or with gestures. So, as imperfect as it was, oral tradition was the way most people communicated in 1st century Judea. Because of this, most preaching was done in the form of allegory and parable. Ideas were best spread this way because these stories could convey the idea with the best chance of the idea not being lost after multiple retellings. But the important thing for us to understand is that the art of aral tradition had been perfected for over a 100,000 years, compared to writing which we have only had for 5,000 years. The world of human communication and interaction was completely alien to what we have today.

On the contrary simple observation of the world as it is even in our modern western civilization says the cultural processes and myth making has not changed.

Crop circles, ghosts, alien abductions. Even the Global Zionist Conspiracy. Are the worlds banks really controlled by a Jewish cabal in Israel?

At the peak somewhere around 20% believed Obama was a closet Muslim.

An interesting phenomena with Christians. A very deep belief in miracle curess they have neverseen, but have heard about.

In a corporate environment. How do rumors start and take on a life of their own? Ever see what was once a rumor be started as fact months and even yeas later by those who had no possible connection.

Back in the 80s I worked at a company with ariund 8000 people spread over a small city. A manger I knew had guy working fpor him he suspected of having abig mouth. He staed a rumor with that one guy, and eventually heard back at a Rotary Club meeting.

You are hard pressed to assert fundamental human dynamics have changed much in only 2000years. It is not all that many generations.

Off Topic and has nothing to do with my post.

Sheshbazzar · 05-26-2013, 07:58 AM

Oral traditions are rumors repeated from generation to generation.

outhouse · 05-26-2013, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Oral traditions are rumors repeated from generation to generation.

Dont forget

Theology and news

EarlDoherty · 05-26-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

We would expect that oral traditions would lead to a multitude of contradictory stories. When somebody records folk legends they generally give various different stories they heard. The folk legend recordists, often gives the different versions of the stories that they have heard.

The only place in the gospels where we get this type of recording of different traditions is in Matthew:

Quote:

28.11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place

28.12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sum of money to the soldiers 28.13 and said, "Tell people, 'His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 28.14 And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 28.15 So they took the money and did as they were directed; and this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.

Yet, even here, it is hard to believe that Roman soldiers would admit to falling asleep and allowing the followers of Jesus to steal his body. This seems like a later addition to the text and does not testify to their really being any oral traditions about Jesus in circulation before the written text.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

It is hard to regard this as simply an expansion of Mark by Matthew. It probably does witness to an oral tradition, among opponents of Christianity, that the disciples of Jesus stole his body.

Andrew Criddle

This issue was hotly debated several years ago between myself and Ben C. Smith. I think I successfully debunked that position. Unfortunately, my contributions to that discussion have since been lost in a computer failure, so I can't quote from them. But I do recall the clincher revolved around an observation about the final verse of Matthew's scene (28:15) which Ben acknowledged.

However, the issue is extensively discussed, in conjunction with the Toledoth Yeshu, in Jesus: Neither God Nor Man (p.524-30 with endnotes 202, 204, 206).

Earl Doherty

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05-25-2013, 09:56 AM	#43
Adam Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Dixon CA Posts: 1,150	That there's no Oral Tradition. It's clearly literary sources. That leaves the logical choice between eyewitnesses with substantial (yet limited) veracity vs. conspiratorial lies. That the first "eyewitnesses" do not recount supernaturalism is the opposite of what we would expect if myths about gods were historicized. HJ trumps MJ. Otherwise deal with it--and show how the sources developed in the way they did, hopefully stating by whom , where, and when.

05-26-2013, 07:58 AM	#48
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Oral traditions are rumors repeated from generation to generation.

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