Amaleq13

Paul and his older contemporary, Jesus.

Ben C Smith

I do not start with that presumption in real time. I started with that presumption in this thread because Doug and I basically agree on that much. In real time I regard the chronological relationship of Paul to Jesus as a proposition to be demonstrated.

If Jesus died circa 30 and Paul already had a full-fledged tradition attributing words Jesus never spoke to the most significant night of his life, I do want to see how and why those words came to be attributed to him within living memory. I am not at all saying that it could not happen; far from it. I have in fact even suggested as much myself. I was just asking for a snapshot of the development.

When I suggested that the Pauline version was not original to Jesus, I also suggested a mechanism whereby it came to be placed on his lips; my suggestion was that Paul had seen a vision. If we had to work within the parameters of a decade or two, that would go some distance in explaining the quickness with which the tradition developed, would it not? Without those parameters the point is, as you seem to be saying, moot. We have all the time in the world.

(I have since backed down from the view that Paul got his version of the last supper from a vision; at the moment I really do not know what to think.)

Yes, but not just because the gospels say so.

No. But for the sake of the discussion with Doug it was safe to accept it automatically, since we tend to agree on that point (and few others... hi, Doug! :wave.

That is to your credit.

Ben.

Amaleq13

How about if the version he "received" was originally somebody else's vision?

:wave:

We only disagree when you are wrong.

Ben C Smith

That may be. But is sure seems harder to prove.

Then it is a wonder we ever disagree.

Ben.

Amaleq13

If, OTOH, we assume that Paul "received" the recollections of someone actually present, then we are again left with intentional rejection/denial of the sacrificial symbology in the Didache eucharist only this time they are doing so despite the fact that Jesus, himself, established it.

If rejection of the symbology is difficult to fathom, how much more so symbology created by Jesus?

:notworthy:

Ben C Smith

That is true.

Well, another thorny biblical problem completely solved to the satisfaction of everybody, eh?

Ben.