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Precisement. I don't care if the book was written by fallible men -- once the claim is made that those fallible men were " inspired " by a divine being, then all kinds of problems arise.

The Bible makes perfect sense to me once you realise it's just a mish mash of *stories* written by ordinary men attempting to understand the world around them.

My girlfriend has responded to this in the past by saying that God reveals himself according to each individuals understanding of the world. I find this a poor excuse, since an all perfect being should be capable of doing a better job.

And each denomination is convinced they have the " correct " interpretation. It seems the height of human arrogance to claim to know precisely what God intends and to think your religion is the only true path to God.

I think we can safely conclude that even in the unlikely scenario of God existing ... he can't possibly be all the things The Bible claims he is .... ironically, owing to the contradictory claims of The Bible itself.

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Uhmmmm. I don't see or hear of non believers converting in droves after hearing the Gospel message.

However, I have read numerous stories of people converting as a reaction to a dysfunctional situation. Losing a loved one, or experiencing personal trauma for instance.

I for one don't believe that the church has purely altruistic motives when I hear of missionaries going to poorer countries or assisting the homeless. These are the very people who are vulnerable and will often seek out a higher meaning to justify things -- I call it taking advantage.

Show me some examples of regular, sane, every day people having a sudden revelation that The Bible is the truth.

Oh yes, all of us should suffer 'cos some simpletons ate fruit in a garden two thousand years ago. Come back to reality please.

Well, if the Holy Spirit is guiding them, you would think he could be a little more *consistent.* One day Jesus commands somebody to go and kill people -- the next he's commanding someone else to give to charity. A true Jekyl and Hyde character.

Of course, it makes sense once you realise there is no Holy Spirit and people just like to convince themselves once they get it into their head this is how they should read The Bible or go about their daily life.

Translation: After being brainwashed I have a " revelation " and start fabricating all kinds of convoluted " logic " to try and convince myself all the stories in The Bible add up.

The language of The Bible is such that a five year old could understand it ... I remember we had a copy in the house, and I read stories at the age of four or five. My understanding of them didn't drastically alter as I grew up -- the stories remained just that -- in fact, I distinctly recall they seemed similar to Aesop's Fables and my book of Grimm's Fairy Tales.

And seventeen years on, nothing much has changed.

I guess the Holy Spirit is forgetting to guide me, or I'm dense and unable to tune into whatever frequency Christian reasoning operates on.

Too many of them still don't it seems -- so on this we agree. My girlfriend was telling me that they have a three year calendar and every Priest in every Church will read the same bits over and over. Now this raised my radar, since it seems they are missing out huge parts and not reading the more interesting parts where God decides to go off on a mass killing spree.

And if you're getting your weekly dose at church, I can see why many wouldn't bother to read it at home -- unless you're hugely interested in the subject.

Well I don't know about Catholics placing faith in the Pope -- many I've known think the Pope is a senile old fool and pay more attention to their friends or their Priest.

However, the stuff about the immaculate conception, the assumption ... I wish people wouldn't get suckered into believing things merely because somebody in authority claims to have divine guidance.

But these are things for another thread I think .... thanks for your input.

Doctor X

Given the consistent ability of "atheists" to comprehend the texts better than you, this says what?

--J.D.

Amos

In the bible this is referred to with "where the carcass lies the vultures will gather."

DrJim

And lots of people read the holy books of other religions and convert to non-Christian religions (sometimes even from Christianity). What is proved by any of it beyond that people will heap their hopes for emotional stability on religion?

Amlodhi

Hello Magus55,

Outline of Magus55's response:

1) Must defend original untenable remark at all costs rather than admit error.

2) Postulate a non-existant correlation between reading skills and religious preference.

3) Add gratuitous insulting statement about atheists.


My reading/comprehension skills have been rated in the 98th percentile (top 2%) in the nation (U.S.). If your reading skills are as impressive as your post implies, you should have no trouble understanding why your credibility suffers.


Amlodhi

Magus55

It was a joke. Atheists like to act superior compared to theists. Atheists seem to create a correlation between belief in God, and low intelligence. I don't think lack of understanding the Bible has anything to do with reading level, other than atheists generally only reading it superficially. Why would atheists bother to read the Bible on a deep level, when they have the presupposition that its false and meaningless anyway. When you read the Bible from that attitude, I don't expect you to understand anything about it other than what you can skim off the top in order to fit your agenda of disproving the Bible. And of course, Biblically speaking, atheists can't understand the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned. You will always find fault with the Bible because you are separated from God. Until an atheist admits their need for salvation, and completely turns themself over to God - they will never understand the majority of the Bible. And since atheists have too much pride to ever do that, I don't expect you to ever understand why Christians find no faults with the Bible. (And no it isn't because we are brainwashed, its because we see the deeper meaning that atheists only look at superficially ).

hezekiah jones

Originally posted by Magus55
Atheists like to act superior compared to theists.

Yet another baseless belief.

hezekiah jones

More utter silliness:

Originally posted by Magus55
And of course, Biblically speaking, atheists can't understand the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned.

That's ridiculous, and circular. They're the same "things," you just like to call them "things of god" for some arcane metaphysical ... I hesitate to say "reason." "Agenda" maybe. Illness?

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All eight hundred and fifty million of them?

Not really. I *do* however think there is a correlation between deeply held religious beliefs and an inability to be truly objective and weigh up the evidence. Possibly due to a lack of exposure regarding other belief systems and childhood indoctrination.

Oh really? What of numerous ex Christians who cite a thorough reading of The Bible as one of the main reasons they deconverted? Did they have a superficial understanding before they tackled it in depth?

Here's a thought: It's quite likely I wouldn't hold the Christian religion in such contempt if it were not for an in depth reading of it's own book. I'm going through it again of late and rather than seeing things differently than a few years ago -- I'm even *more* convinced God is a mass murdering homicidal maniac and Jesus is a bit of an imbecile who acts like a stroppy teenager whenever he encounters those who disbelieve in him.

Because some of us desire to learn and understand things which are not familar. A belief is not a necessary thing to possess *before* reading The Bible -- I'd argue it's The Bible's job to convince us and not vice versa.

If it *truly* is the word of God, then you would expect more people to come to a unified consensus on what it actually says. As it is, even you Christian's can't agree -- which doesn't exactly jibe well with us non believers who would be inclined to take it more seriously if there were not hundreds of interpretations of the same text.

LOL! You honestly believe that, don't you? I feel precisely the same things as everybody else -- and I'll argue that some things I perhaps feel and appreciate more intensely than a devout religious person *because* I realise I only have one shot at this world.

My faith in other people is far more fulfilling and rewarding than a faith in a God that hasn't bothered to reveal himself in any meaningful way since the Universe began.

Yes. Let's all become obedient servants to the master of the Universe. Sounds more like the next Star Wars film.

Excuse me, but how many of us do you see claiming to KNOW irrefutably how the ENTIRE UNIVERSE came into existence? Is that not a trifle hubristic?