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Old 02-28-2009, 05:39 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave31 View Post
Ah, Acharya has responded to the Skeptic magazine article by Tim Callahan (Eskeptic, 2/25/09)

Skeptic Mangles ZEITGEIST
(and Religious History)

http://stellarhousepublishing.com/sk...zeitgeist.html

She mops the floor with him.
So this is Callahan:

Quote:
This story, like most of Part I of Zeitgeist, is a pastiche of factoid, fiction and ingenious invention. It also betrays a certain naïveté on the part of Peter Joseph in regard to his knowledge of the Bible. This is obvious when he sees in the “Three Kings” of Orion’s belt pointing at Sirius, the source of the magi following the star in the Nativity story of Matthew. At this point, let me ask readers a question: Without looking at a Bible, tell me how many wise men or kings followed the star to Bethlehem. Most likely you answered “Three.” After all, we’ve all heard and sung the popular Christmas carol “We Three Kings of Orient Are.” So weren’t there three kings? Let’s look at the Bible, specifically at Matthew 2:1,2:
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East and have come to worship him.”
Two things are readily apparent from this passage. First, those who saw the star are wise men, not kings. In the original Greek of the New Testament, what is translated as “wise men” is magi, that is, Zoroastrian holy men. The Greek word magos is the source of our words mage, magic and magician. Second, Matthew nowhere says how many magi came to Jerusalem. So where did we ever get the idea there were three of them?
Callahan seems to make a good point. This is Murdock in response:
Quote:
In this discussion, Callahan also raises another straw man: To wit, the number of the "wise men" or "kings," at the same time splitting hairs and nitpicking by stating that "kings" and "wise men" are not the same thing. It is not, as Callahan complains, the "nonsense" of films like ZG that give Christian apologists ammunition but the ridiculous and meaningless nitpicking engaged in by skeptics that hands them ammo.

This latter point about the wise men/kings would be important only to a pedant but not to the public, who could and did easily alternate these dignitaries, which is why we do in fact find them interchangeably within Christian tradition itself. The number of these dignitaries is also not important, although in the Bible their gifts are three and Christian tradition holds them as three, in evident emulation of the popular motif from Egypt. It would be a simple matter for the Jewish imitators of the Egyptian myth to leave out the number of the "wise men" or "kings."
Gotcha. There were three wise men in the original story. Only we don't have evidence of that because it was left out.
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:37 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murdock
This latter point about the wise men/kings would be important only to a pedant but not to the public,...
Wouldn't it be also be important to Peter Joseph in his effort to connect them to the three stars in Orion's belt since it essentially renders that connection non-existent?

Once again, pointing out sloppy scholarship is not a problem for the alleged scholar but, somehow, becomes the critic's flaw.

In his myopic emphasis on accurate details, the critic fails to appreciate the appearance of a forest that was created and foolishly ignores how many people have found that appearance to be beautiful when pointing out that the trees are cardboard. :banghead:
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Old 03-01-2009, 10:54 AM   #93
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Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer bears some striking parallels to the Silenus, the Greek god of drunkenness. I am going to say there is an ancient connection.
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Old 03-02-2009, 09:54 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Robert M. Schock, Ph.D
The great pyramids of Egypt provide a wonderful glimpse of the artistry, skill and imagination of the ancient world. But pyramids can be found in India, China, Peru, Bolivia, Mexico and Ireland. In this provocative book, geologist Schoch (noted for his work in redating the Sphinx, which was recounted in his Voices of the Rocks) wonders how so many diverse cultures built such similar structures with similar purposes. .
Well, it seems obvious (to me anyway) that if you don't have modern technology, and you want to build a tall structure, the you dont have any choice but to build a pyramid.

Am I missing something?
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Old 03-26-2009, 05:43 AM   #95
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Just like a Just-So story, Zeitgeist is plausible.

A necessary, but insufficient, condition to the establishment of truth.
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Old 03-28-2009, 12:13 PM   #96
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A new blog:

Christian Apologist: "ZEITGEIST is Right"
http://tbknews.blogspot.com/2009/03/...-is-right.html

Let me just emphasize a couple points about Zeitgeist part 1. It seems too many tend to forget or weren't aware in the first place:

Quote:
"Zeitgeist came into existence as a personal project which was shown in New York as a free public awareness expression. After the event was over, "The Movie" was tossed online with little thought given to a public response. Within a month, the film was getting record views. Months later, the "Final Edition" was completed. In total, the views for "Zeitgeist, The Movie" have exceeded 50,000,000 on Google video alone. Considering the other posts in different formats, along with public screenings, it is estimated that the total world views are well over 100 Million."

- Zeitgeist Creator, Peter Joseph
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/q&a.htm
Quote:
"First of all, let me clarify that I was not involved in the creation of ZEITGEIST, other than providing a few images and consulting on Part 1 at the last minute, the result of which was the final, "Official" version. However, my work did serve as a significant inspiration for Part 1. I had no involvement in Parts 2 and 3, and make no comment thereupon in this article."

- Acharya
http://tbknews.blogspot.com/2008/04/...futed-not.html
Quote:
"The 25-minute segment was not meant to serve as a thorough scholarly analysis."

- Acharya
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/sk...zeitgeist.html
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Old 03-28-2009, 12:52 PM   #97
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Historian: Believers throwing away real Jesus with pagan bathwater

Quote:
...
"What is happening is that 'antichrists' are turning the false traditions of the theologians right back on them and the theologians do not have a biblical leg to stand on," Rives told WND. "All those who present the traditions of men can do is throw up their hands in defeat. The theologians know it and so do the antichrists such as 'Zeitgeist.'"

Rives, also known for his hunt for the Ark of the Covenant, added, "Millions of believers have watched 'Zeitgeist' and many are throwing away their long held faith in Jesus as a result. I am receiving calls from people concerned about family members who are doing just that."

Rives has designed a PowerPoint presentation to educate people about what is true and what is not when it comes to "Zeitgeist," and has recently created a rebuttal website featuring videos he posted on YouTube.
I'm afraid that if WingNutDaily endorsed my work, I wouldn't want to advertise it.
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Old 03-28-2009, 05:05 PM   #98
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Ah, you may have missed the point Toto. It wasn't about any endorsement from "WingNutDaily." It is an admission against Christian's own interests - that is the point and it's significant.

A mere decade ago Christian apologists flatly denied any comparisons at all. Now, they're finally coming out to admit things more and more, little by little. It's just a start but at least some headway has been made. And, it looks like folks can thank Acharya's work for much of that. So, maybe a little appreciation is in order?
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Old 03-29-2009, 01:32 AM   #99
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Nah - Protestant extremists have been accusing Catholics of being pagan for long before Acharya S.

The dominant idea behind the quests for a historical Jesus has been that there was an original pure Christianity started by a good Jesus, that was almost immediately corrupted by the later followers. It doesn't do the case for a mythical Jesus at the origins of Christianity any good to show that there were mythical elements added on in the fourth century.
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Old 03-29-2009, 04:04 AM   #100
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For those who are interested, I present, formatted and bolded for your convenience, a brief history:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary of the History of Ideas
MAX MÜLLER AND THE NATURE-MYTHOLOGY

The wide interest in Indo-European mythologies, religions, and folklore which characterizes the second half of the nineteenth century is in great measure an outgrowth of Max Müller's literary activity. From the brilliant essay on “Comparative Mythology,” published in Oxford Essays (1856) to his two-volume work, Contributions to the Science of Mythology (1897), the learned Vedic scholar untiringly explained, defended, and restated his conception of the origin, meaning, and function of myths. According to Müller, mythology is the result of a “disease of language.” The fact that an object can have many names (polynomy) and, conversely, that the same name can be applied to several objects (homonymy) produced a confusion of names. This gave rise to the combination of several gods into one and the separation of one god into many. Nomina-numina: what was at the beginning a name, nomen, became a divinity, numen. Moreover, the use of endings denoting grammatical gender led to the personification of the gods.

According to Müller, the ancient Aryans constructed their pantheon around the sun, the dawn, and the sky. The solar myths played the foremost role. “I look upon the sunrise and sunset, on the daily return of day and night, on battle between light and darkness, on the whole solar drama in all its details that is acted every day, every month, every year, in heaven and in earth, as the principle subject of early mythology” (1869, p.537). Therefore, Cronus swallowing and later disgorging his children is only the “mythopoeic” expression of a meterological phenomenon—namely, the sky devouring and later releasing the clouds. Likewise, the Baltic tales with the golden boat that sinks in the sea, or the apple that falls from the tree, actually refer to the setting sun.

Müller also found that the solar myths among the non-Aryan races are the result of the “disease of language.” The myths of the Polynesian hero Maui reveal their meaning when we discover that this name signifies the sun, or fire, of the day; the Hottentot god Tsui-goab, now understood as “Broken-knee,” originally meant “the dawn” or “rising sun” (Dorson in Sebeok, p. 26).

In his old age, Max Müller witnessed the collapse of the solar-mythology. The discrediting of this once popular method of interpretation was partially due to the devastating criticism of Andrew Lang, but also was due to the consequence of the wild exaggerations of some of Müller's disciples. Thus George William Cox reduced all Indo-European mythologies and folklores to the contest between light and darkness. While Müller endeavored to establish the identity of certain Greek and Indian gods through etymology, Cox compared the epic elements present in the different myths. As a result, all the Greek heroes, from Heracles and Achilles to Odysseus and Paris, and even King Arthur, the Frog Prince, and Cinderella, revealed themselves to be impersonators of the same solar deity. “The story of the sun starting in weakness and ending in victory, waging a long warfare against darkness, clouds, and storms, and scattering them all in the end is the story of all patient self-sacrifice, of all Christian devotion”
(Cox, I, 168).
Also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary of the History of Ideas
THE ASTRAL-MYTHOLOGICAL AND PAN-BABYLONIAN SCHOOLS

At the beginning of this century the so-called astral-mythological and Pan-Babylonian schools became popular in Germany. Although originally representing two independent approaches, their basic presuppositions were similar, and in 1906 the partisans of both schools founded the Gesellschaft für vergleichende Mythenforschung (Society for the Study of Comparative Mythology) in Berlin. The first volume published by the society was E. Siecke's Drachenkämpfe: Untersuchungen zur indogermanischen Sagenkunde (1907). This passionate and prolific author can be considered the founder and the leader of the new school of thought. For Siecke, myths must be understood literally because their contents always refer to some specific celestial phenomena, namely, the forms and movements of the planets and stars. Consequently, for Siecke myths do not reflect animistic experiences and conceptions; they have nothing to do with belief in souls, or with dreams and nightmares. The most important mythical figures are the sun and especially the moon. As a matter of fact, Siecke, Böcklen, and Hüsing emphasized so strongly the role of the moon in the mythical process that their doctrine could be called “pan-lunarism” (Schmidt, Origin..., p. 94).

One of the most distinguished followers of the astral-mythology school, P. Ehrenreich, reacted against these excesses. In his book Die allgemeine Mythologie und ihre ethnologischen Grundlagen (1910), he pointed out the importance of the sun and other heavenly bodies in the mythologies of a considerable number of primitive and archaic peoples. In the last analysis the study of moon-myths revealed that early man was relating astral phenomena to the mystery of death and resurrection. The dying moon became an image of the mythical ancestor, and the lunar rhythms were considered as somehow being the paradigm of human existence (birth, growth, death, resurrection).

Pan-Babylonianism was represented principally by H. Winckler, A. Jeremias, and E. Stucken. Despite their copious productivity, very little of their work has retained any lasting significance. In his three-volume work Astralmythen (1901-07), Stucken tried to prove the direct or indirect Mesopotamian origin of all the mythologies of the world. For the Pan-Babylonianists, all myths are concerned with the movements of the sun, the moon, and the planet Venus. Celestial revolutions were regarded by the Mesopotamians as the expression of the power, will, and intelligence of the deities. As early as 3000 B.C. this system was completely developed in Mesopotamia, whence it was then diffused over the whole earth, being found even today in the myths of the “primitives.” The Pan-Babylonianists saw evidence of this diffusion in the astronomical knowledge implied in mythological systems. Such scientific observations, they argued, were certainly impossible for the archaic peoples. Thus the Pan-Babylonianists link the naturistic origin of myths with their historical diffusion. Against the supporters of animism and of the theory of “elementary ideas” of Bastian who explained the similarity of myths by the basic unity of the human mind, the Pan-Babylonianists emphasized the highly elevated, “scientific” origin of mythology, and its diffusion even among the most primitive tribes.

The Pan-Babylonian school declined as a consequence of its own extravagant generalizations and excesses. It was easy to prove, for example, that the primitive myths concerning the Pleiades have nothing to do with the passage of the sun through the zodiac (Schmidt, Origin..., pp. 101ff.). But some of the Pan-Babylonianists' presuppositions were reasserted by other schools—although in different contexts. For instance, a quarter of a century later, “diffusionism” became extremely popular in England under the influence of G. Elliot Smith's Pan-Egyptianism. This Pan-Egyptianist school tried to explain the totality of myths, rituals, and social institutions (with the exceptions of those of the hunters and food-gatherers) as ultimately deriving from Egypt. The British Myth and Ritual School also conceded an exceptional place to the Babylonian documents.
The Dictionary of the History of Ideas:
http://etext.virginia.edu/cgi-local/....cgi?id=dv3-40

There's also a more up to date version: The New Dictionary of the History of Ideas (2004):

http://www.gale.cengage.com/servlet/...pe=4&id=188152

The downside of books from the early 20th century and before being public domain is that they introduce lots of obsolete scholarship onto the Internet. Astral mythology, pan-Babylonianism, and solar mythology represent a few examples of this. This is what Acharya espouses.

:huh:
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