DCHindley

The thrones and crowns in this passage are the ones stored in the seventh heaven (Ch 9, vs 25) for the benefit of the righteous dead, who reside there in their heavenly garb but do not wear crowns or sit on their thrones until Christ has descended into the world.

9:11. And I asked the angel who was with me, "How is it that they have received their garments, but are without their thrones and crowns?" 12. And he said to me, "Crowns and thrones of glory have they not yet received, [but] only when the Beloved shall descend in the form in which you will see him descend [this is described in chapter 10:7-31]; - 13. that is to say, in the last days of the Lord, who will be called Christ, will descend into the world. - Nevertheless, they see the thrones and know to whom they shall belong and to whom the crown shall belong after he [i.e., Christ] has descended an become like you in appearance, and it shall be thought that he is flesh and a man. 14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will lay hands on him and crucify him on a tree, without knowing who he is. 15. So his descent, as you wilt see, is hidden from the heavens so that it remains unperceived who he is.

In the description of the descent (ch 10) it is said that

10:29. And again he descended into the firmament where the prince of the world dwells, and he gave the pass-word to those [angels] on the left, and his form was like theirs, and they did not praise him there, but struggled with one another in envy, for there the power of evil rules, and envying about trifles. 30. And I beheld, how he descended and became like the angels of the air and was like one of them. 31. And he gave no pass-word for they were plundering and doing violence to one another.

It is after this that he, in total anonymity, was born of a virgin, grew up, performed signs and wonders. On account of these

Ch 11:19. ... the adversary envied him and roused the children of Israel against him, not knowing who he was, and they [i.e., the children of Israel] delivered him to the king and crucified him , and he [Christ] descended to the angel of the underworld.

After this, during his ascension back up, still in the first heaven (where the air and firmament exist) did

23 ... all the angels of the firmament and the Satan saw him, and they worshipped him.

So, unlike "the archons of this age (aeon)" of 1 Corinthians, in the Ascension of Isaiah it was "the adversary" (singular), presumably the "god of that world" (Ascension of Isaiah 9:14) = "prince of the world" (10:29), not a slew of powers and archons, who crucified the Christ. The closest thing to the idea of archons (rulers) might be "the king" of 11:19, but he is mentioned in the singular. It is unclear whether the "prince of the world," or the Roman emperor, is meant, yet in either case it was through a minion, the Roman governor of Judea, that the Christ was crucified.

DCH (on lunch break, boss)

gurugeorge

Actually it's always struck me that if there was a historical Jesus, he might well have been one of those guys. After all, they're historically attested Jesuses!

aa5874

I think you guessed wrong. The Gentiles did not understand.

1Co 1:23 -

jakejonesiv

Hi DHC,

Who are "they" in the heavens in 9:14-15? Sounds like the demiurge and his minions to me. Admitedly I haven't checked the Greek, so if the English Translation of R. H. Charles is incorrect, please so advise.

Best,
Jake

9:14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will lay hands on him and crucify him on a tree, without knowing who he is. 15. So his descent, as you wilt see, is hidden from the heavens so that it remains unperceived who he is.

DCHindley

I just don't see the need to assume something unstated in the text. The text (11:19) does mention the "children of Israel" being roused against the Christ by "the adversary," which I equated with the "god/prince of that world" of 9:14/10:29. On his descent, the Christ hid his true nature to the angels of all the heavens from the 6th heaven down to the firmament. The "children of Isreal" are "they."

You are projecting Gnostic ideas into a text that seems to be interpreting traditional Christian doctrine about Christ in a Jewish apocalyptic framework (e.g., 1 Enoch, 4th Ezra, etc), even if it is selective about the ideas it borrows from that genre.

Marcion's point of view seems to be dependent upon a text such as 1 Cor 2:8, at least as Tertullian describes it (which may be purposely distorted to set up a straw man that he could easily knock down).

Now he may have known of something like the Ascension of Isaiah, but introduces an element it does not have, fallen angels and the Devil. If you note, the Ascension of Isaiah treats the angels of the different heavens as agents of God's authority, each having different functions, becoming more petty and capricious as the heavens get closer to ground level. While the "prince" or "god of that world" is spoken of as an "adversary," he is an angel performing his assigned function, like Satan in the book of Job, and not a renegade. This world view is consistent with the popular angelology of the day.

In Tertullian, there are "fallen angels" (such as those mentioned in 1 & 2 Enoch) led by "the Devil."

... the heretic [Marcion] argues that the princes of this world crucified the Lord (that is, the Christ of the rival god) in order that this blow might even recoil on the Creator ... it properly enough was unknown to all the princes and powers of the Creator, on the principle that servants are not permitted to know their masters' plans, much less the fallen angels and the leader of transgression himself, the devil Himself.
Tertullian Against Marcion Book V

FWIW, the translation I used was that of C. Detlef G. Mueller, Wm Schneemelcher's New Testament Apocrypha, volume 2, pp 603ff (Eng.Tr. 1992 by R. McL. Wilson). The translation you cited seemed garbled.

DCH