Asha'man

Ahh, I see where this is going. So, is Jesus just a story too? There never was such a man, it's all just a fable to show you how God works?

Lemme see, what is the lesson? Oh, right. The guy who makes the rules likes blood and torture. Instead of just forgiving us for being imperfect humans, he demands death and a travesty of justice, applied to himself, before he can do the right thing. However, his love is utterly conditional on how gullible you are. Did I get the message right?

Asha'man

As you can see from my post above, go to the heart: where does "history" end and "interpretation" begin? If Noah is a poetic metaphore, then isn't Jesus one too? Both sections of text read like history, there is nothing in them that says <metaphore> </metaphore>. Both contain events that are simply impossible by the standards of reality that exist today. So, why is one an "interpretation" and not the other?

If Noah isn't real, then maybe Jesus isn't. If Jesus isn't real, then maybe God isn't. The whole Bible can be tossed out as myth, and you can let common sense and rationality back into the room.

runnerryan

Asha'man your thoughts on Christ's death are the most incredibly off topic post I've ever seen on any message board. It doesn't help a discussion along when you bring up a separate topic in such a confrontational way. And trying to argue Jesus didn't exist is just such a wasted effort.

CX it does show that evil has consequences. Would you rather live in a world where there were no standards, where no one was held accountable?

Asha'man

I thought it was perfectly on topic: It was a demonstration of why personal interpretation is such a lousy way to understand the Bible. I simply took your example and followed it to the next logical step.

To a brainwashed believer, logic and reason are no longer valid debate techniques. Experience has shown that theists have an almost entirely emotional basis for their beliefs. Therefore, it takes an emotional jolt to jar them back into reality, where reason applies.

There is really only one valid interpretation of the Bible, the one the authors intended. The story of Noah appears to have been written as history, that’s what the author(s) thought it was. The story of Jesus appears to have written as history, that’s what the author(s) thought it was. Both can be evaluated using identical historical methods, and both fail when those methods are applied, demonstrating that both are actually myth. If you believe that one is real while one is myth, then you are probably not applying unbiased methods.

Claiming that Bible stories contain moral advice, rather than history, is equally pointless. Clearly, the morality displayed by God within the Bible is extremely questionable. I, and many other atheists, find the character of God displayed in the Bible to be reprehensible. He comes across as a genocidal sociopath with delusions of grandeur. Every time he makes a choice that creates death rather than life, he demonstrates his moral bankruptcy, and the stories of Noah and Jesus are both about God choosing death. If I want moral advice, the last book I would ever turn to is the Bible.

runnerryan

Asha'man I think there is a historical difference when talking about Noah and Jesus in that no historian worth a dime would deny the existence of Jesus. I disagree with the Koran but I don't think Muhammed didn't exist.

I'm sure you've heard this question a million times but I have to ask it so this discussion can go to the next step. If there is no God why is choosing death a bad thing? (I'm not saying I agree with you on what the bible says I'm just talking about the moral judgement you made). Where do you get the idea that life is of any value?

Toto

It is incorrect to imply that Jesus' existence is a settled historical fact. Most historians appear to avoid the question, because the evidence is so equivocal, and there is no way to prove definitively that Jesus existed or did not exist.. You will find a number of threads on the question that have discussed the question to death - check the sticky at the top of this page.

This is veering off topic. If you wish to discuss this topic, please open a new thread in another forum - MFP or GRD.

For the purposes of this forum, you will need to accept that people who do not believe in god find all the more reason to value life on earth, and wonder why Christians do not want to die so they can go to heaven. If you wish to challenge or discuss that, this is not the place. Any further replies along this line will be split off and relocated to the proper forum.

runnerryan

Toto, sorry about that I'm just following the discussion. I'll see if anybody wants to keep this discussion going in that direction in another thread.
I would consider the existence of Jesus a settled issue, but that is yet another separate thread's discussion and not what I'm most interested in discussing right now.

Asha'man

The existence of Jesus is about as settled as the existence of King Arthur. There is tons of material written about both, but finding out which scraps refer to an actual historical person is nearly impossible. Even if there was a historical Jesus, the description of events in the Gospels are clearly not historical, and can only rationally be considered as mythological as the description of Noah's life.

I would love to live in a world where cosmic justice actually applied, where evil doers were clearly and immediately held accountable. I would also love to be a multi-millionare and have sex with a supermodel every night. What a wonderful world that would be.

However, if that was your interpretation from reading the story of Noah, it would be a false lesson. A quick glance at CNN will demonstrate that reality doesn't work that way. Evil deeds are punished only by acts of man, and the world is a fundamentally unfair place to live.

runnerryan

Asha'man
Sometimes evil deeds are punished in this world, sometimes repentance on the part of evildoers allows for forgiveness, and sometimes unrepentent evil is only dealt with in the afterlife. That is more satisfying than believing it goes unpunished, and just because we wish something to be true doesn't mean it isn't. I would like to be a millionaire, I'm not. I would like my academic achievements to be fairly evaluated and recognized, and they are. (Not that I'm particularly bright but I'd like to think I'm smart enough) Sometimes what we want to be isn't the case, but sometimes it is.

Magus55

Not to get off topic, but the Ark didn't require millions of species to be on it. That isn't a good question to ask your friend.