GakuseiDon

Ah, but we have the existence of the "eBarnabas" Christians here: Christians who, while believing that Jesus walked the earth, nonetheless knew little or had little interest in Gospel details. If the author of 9:14 is the same as of 4, which has the demon Beliar came down as Nero to persecute the church planted by the apostles, then the date that this part was written is probably late First Century, which puts it into the period of the eBarnabas Christians. They might well have written 9.14 without the need to expand 11. The final redaction, usually dated around mid-Second Century when the Gospels started to become authoritative and when 11 was rewritten to include Gospel-like details, fits perfectly into that scenario. What do you think?

It would depend on what else you think might be in the intermediate text, as well as the literature at large. Did they think that there were trees in the air above the earth and below the firmament? If so, I agree that the location of "They will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is" is not clear.

EmmaZunz

But then if they thought the crucifixion was on earth or anywhere else, why not put it in chap. 11 in L/S?

I guess there's no reason to think the redactor of 9:14 didn't mean it to be on the earth. But I think 9:14 has very little to do with the text itself. It's just a solitary little comment.

Toto

Pete's attempt to discuss the dating of the AofI has been split off.

EmmaZunz

LOL.

Anyone have an opinion on my theory?

Basically I'm suggesting from the text that 9:14 about the "god of that world" killing the "Son" was an interpolation at some point.

It's in both manuscript traditions, but I suggest it doesn't fit with the rest of the text. It disturbs the flow of 9:13-15 - although this passage has clearly been much disturbed by different editors. Some of you guys understand the manuscript differences in this passage a lot better than I do.

It uses the term "Son", which is not the term the Vision uses up till that point for its hero, who is referred to as the "Beloved" or "Elect One". It uses the term "the god of that world" which has not been used before that point to refer to any of the devils (10:12 has it in plural though).

If 9:14 is unoriginal, then there is no other authentic evidence in the Vision that the original had a slain saviour figure.

If there was a crucifixion or sacrifice originally in chapter 11, that would lead to the very unusual and unlikely conclusion that the Latin/Slavonic editor has removed that detail.

So I suggest there was originally no crucifixion or sacrifice in chapter 11.

The instructions of God to our hero in 10:8-13 make no mention of any suffering or sacrifice to be undergone.

So the original vision had a non-sacrificial, un-crucified saviour figure who merely disguised himself as an angel (or maybe a man, depending how you judge the parts of the text that suggest human form) to go under-cover in Sheol and rescue the dead souls from the demon powers.

Thoughts? Comments?

GakuseiDon

I think it is plausible, though any reading of a text where you have removed the parts that disagree with your reading will be inherently plausible.

Where it makes sense is that it explains that God is going to send His agent to rescue the souls in Hades. A Platonic remote and unchanging God wouldn't do this Himself, so it makes sense that God would send an agent. And naturally this would be prophecized by one of the Hebrew prophets!

It wouldn't take much to see this as the role of the Messiah, and for later Christians to then adopt this role for Jesus. I suspect that this "breaking souls out of Hades" is related to the saints breaking out of their tombs in Matthew (though those were bodies and not spirits).

Where I have difficulty is: why is this hidden from the heavens and the world? That is, breaking out the souls from Hades appears to be something that God would do at the end. If the pre-Christian (and presumably Jewish) author thinks that this has already happened, what event is being referred to? If the Vision is of some future event, then I can't see why the author would believe that the event is hidden. That Christ didn't usher in the End Times but came in disguise appears to be a post-ad hoc rationalization after Christ was crucified and the End Times didn't actually occur. The author wouldn't have that mindset, as far as I can see.

So, do you see the original text as being about a Rescue that occured, or one that is still to occur? If the former, what event does the author refer to? Why would the author explain how the Beloved broke into Hades and rescued the souls as something that had already occurred? If the later, why is the Beloved's descent hidden?

(Note that none of the above touches on the HJ/MJ debate! This is the part I really enjoy: discussing how ancient people thought of their world.)

EmmaZunz

No idea! What had Isaiah seen - the action itself in the present or a vision of a future action? I suppose a vision of the future and he is supposed to keep it quiet: see 11:38-9. Of course mission security has been potentially compromised by revealing the secret to a mortal!

I think this is an early version of the Harrowing of Hell that we get in dramatic form in the Acts of Pilate.

My guess is this original Vision is pretty early. I think it's pre-Xian like you say. Doesn't even originally have name of Jesus or Christ. Or even Son I believe. V interesting.

mountainman

The author writes as the BCE Isaiah presenting the future from the 1st or 2nd century of the common era (according to mainstream chronological estimates). The author is not the BCE Isaiah. The author is unknown.


Time is being twisted. The author supposedly writes after the birth of Jesus under Tiberius, yet writes in the futuristic sense.



But are we dealing with a gnostic and/or Platonic author?

The Platonic mysteries of all these layered "heavens" was not supposed to be revealed to outsiders or even new inititiates. There was some form of graduated development and teaching associated with this. They were not supposed to be written down. Secrecy was adhered to, similar to the Pythagoraeans. Perhaps something happened that forced them being written down in this fashion?


See my notes on The Three different Acts of Pilate. Eusebius writes that this blasphemous narrative was authored in the rule of Diocletian, and was taken around to the schools to be learnt by children of the empire, in opposition to the Gospels and the Christian message.




All this is possible of course. But LOL apparently we are not permitted to discuss the hypothetical chronology of AoI in this thread.




With much shock and horror I tend to agree with many of GDon's comments about a "possible interpolation" and the questions he raises in post # 15.

GakuseiDon

I don't think either Emma or I are suggesting that the Isaiah in the story was the actual 6th Century BCE Isaiah who actually had that vision.

What are "Platonic mysteries" of "layered 'heavens'" and how do you know that they were not revealed to new initiates?

DCHindley

Emma,

It is more complicated than you think. Charles deduced that the surviving manuscripts of the Ascension of Isaiah were derived from two lost Greek versions, one preserved in Ethiopic translations (manuscripts a, b & c) and a fair Latin translation (L1), and the other Greek version is preserved by a fairly crappy second Latin translation (L2) and also a very good Latin translation of a lost Slavonic translation (the Latin translation of the Slavonic translation is designated mss S), which itself appears to have been very faithful to the Greek version it was based on.

Charles' text is "ecclectic" and tries to reconstruct the lost original Greek which was the basis of the two Greek rescensions mentioned above. The rescension reflected by the Ethiopic mss and ms L1 is the "fullest", often including passages that are not found in mss L2 & S. There are also differences between manuscripts in the way they rendered the passages, sometimes significantly different.

I'm going to give Charles' English translations of the Ethiopic and Latin translations of both these rescensions, so you can see just how wild the ride is goiing to be. I have marked with brackets "[ ]" the text of both the E/L1 or the S/L2translations where one has the text and the other doesn't, and marked with slashes "/" passages common to both rescensions that had significant differences in wording (oh, and there are some doozies). All this is derived from the footnotes and text from his 1900 English translation. The more recent 1985 Knibb translation was not used as his critical notes really didn't tell me anything at all about his sources. Boy do I love R H Charles' thoroughness (although I did catch a couple errors).

What I'd recommend doing is look at the text that E/L1 has that are not in S/L2, and vice versa. Do the same with the way the E/L1 renders passages differently than S/L2. It is going to take you a while to get the sense of it, believe me. Then we can talk about whether 9:14 seems out of place.

Cheers,

DCH

CHAPTER 9.1 AND he took me into the air of the seventh heaven, and moreover I heard a voice saying: "How far will he ascend that dwelleth /among aliens/?" And I feared and trembled.	CHAPTER 9.1 AND he took me into the air of the seventh heaven, and moreover I heard a voice saying: "How far will he ascend that dwelleth /in the flesh/?" And I feared and trembled.
2. And [when I trembled, behold], I heard from hence another voice [being sent forth, and] saying: "It is permitted to the holy Isaiah to ascend hither; for here is his garment." 3. And I asked the angel who was with me [and said]: "Who is he who forbade me and who is he who permitted me to ascend?" 4. And he said unto me: "He who forbade thee, is he who is over the praise-giving of the sixth heaven.	2. And[*], I heard from hence another voice[*] saying: "It is permitted to the holy Isaiah to ascend hither; for here is his garment." 3. And I asked the angel who was with me[*]: "Who is he who forbade me and who is he who permitted me to ascend?" 4. And he said unto me: "He who forbade thee, is he who is over the praise-giving of the sixth heaven.
5. And He who permitted thee, this is /thy (or 'our') Lord (God)/, [the Lord Christ, who will be called "Jesus" in the world], but His name thou canst not hear till thou hast ascended out of /(thy - or this)/ body."	5. And He who permitted thee, this is /the Son of God/[*], but His name thou canst not hear till thou hast ascended out of /(thy - or the)/ body."
6. And he raised me up into the seventh heaven, and I saw there a wonderful light and angels innumerable. 7a. And there I saw all the righteous	6. And he raised me up into the seventh heaven, and I saw there a wonderful light and angels innumerable. 7a. And there I saw all the righteous
7b. [from the time of Adam]. 8. [And there I saw the holy Abel and all the righteous.] 9a. [And there I saw Enoch and all who were with him,]	7b.[*] 8.[*]. 9a.[*]
9b. stript of the garments of the flesh, and I saw them in their garments of the upper world, and they were [like angels], standing there in great glory.	9b. stript of the garments of the flesh, and I saw them in their garments of the upper world, and they were[*], standing there in great glory.
10. But they sat not on their thrones, nor were their crowns of glory on them. 11. And I asked the angel who was with me: "How is it that they have received the garments, but have not the thrones and the crowns?"	10. But they sat not on their thrones, nor were their crowns of glory on them. 11. And I asked the angel who was with me: "How is it that they have received the garments, but have not the thrones and the crowns?"
13 (this is original order of Eth vss 12 & 13, which Charles thinks is reversed due to a confused scribe). And he said unto me: "Crowns and thrones of glory they do not receive, till the Beloved will descend in the form in which you will see Him descend [(will descend, I say) into the world in the last days the Lord, who will be called Christ]. 12. Nevertheless they [see and] know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, [and they will think that He is flesh and is a man.]	12. Nevertheless they[*] know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and[*].13. And he said unto me: "Crowns and thrones of glory they do not receive, till the Beloved will descent in the form in which you will see Him descent[*].
14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, /and will lay hands upon Him, and will crucify Him./ not knowing who He is.	14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, /and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him/ not knowing who He is.
15. And thus His descent, /as you will see, will be hidden even from the heavens, so that it will not be known who He is./16. /And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the third day,/ [and he will remain in that world five hundred and forty-five days].17. /And then many of the righteous will ascend with Him, whose spirits do not receive their garments till [the Lord Christ] ascend and they ascend with Him./	15. And thus His descent, /And He will descend into Hades and make it and the phantoms (visiones) of hell desolate./ 16. /And He will seize the prince of death, and will plunder him, and will crush all his powers, and He will rise the third day,/[*] 17. /Having certain righteous persons with Him, and He will send forth His preachers into the whole world and[*] will ascend into the heavens./
18. Then indeed they will receive their [garments and] thrones and crowns, when He has ascended into the [seventh] heaven."19. And I said unto him that which I had asked him in the third heaven:	18. Then indeed they will receive their[*] thrones and crowns, when He has ascended into the[*] heaven."19. And I said unto him that which I had asked him in the third heaven:
20. /And he said unto me/ "Everything which is done in that world is here made known."	20. /"Show me how/ everything which is done in that world is here made known."
21. And whilst I was still speaking with him, behold one of the angels who stood nigh, more glorious than the glory of that angel, who had raised me up from the world.	21. And whilst I was still speaking with him, behold one of the angels who stood nigh, more glorious than the glory of that angel, who had raised me up from the world.
22a. Showed me a book, [but not as a book of this world] (Charles calls this a doublet of what follows later in the same verse, where it would make more sense) and he opened it, and the book was written, but not as a book of this world.	22a. Showed me a book,[*] and he opened it, and the book was written, but not as a book of this world.
22b. And he gave (it) to me and I read it, and lo! the deeds of the children of /Israel/ were written therein, and the deeds of those whom I know (not), my son Josab.	22b. And he gave (it) to me and I read it, and lo! the deeds of the children of /Jerusalem/ were written therein, and the deeds of those whom I know (not), my son Josab.
23a. And I said: "In truth, there is nothing hidden in the seventh heaven, which is done in /this world/."	23a. And I said: "In truth, there is nothing hidden in the seventh heaven, which is done in /(the) world/."
23b.[*]	23b. [And I asked the angel: "Who is he yonder who excels all (S omits "all") the angels in his glory ?" And he answered and said unto me : "He yonder (S 'The preeminent angel yonder') is the great angel Michael ever praying on behalf of humanity."]
24. And I saw there many garments laid up, and many thrones and many crowns. 25. And I said to the angel: "Whose are these garments and thrones and crowns?"	24. And I saw there many garments laid up, and many thrones and many crowns. 25. And I said to the angel: "Whose are these garments and thrones and crowns?"
26a. And he said unto me: "These garments many from that world will receive, believing in the words of That One, [who shall be named]	26a. And he said unto me: "These garments many from that world will receive, believing in the words of That One[*]
26b. /as I told thee,/	26b. /regarding whom I told thee./
26c. [and they will observe those things, and believe in them, and believe in His cross: (for) them are (these) laid up (emended - mss a&c 'but for them are laid up' ms b 'which for them are laid up' or 'for whom they are laid up' )]."	26c.[*]."
27. And I saw a certain One [standing, whose glory surpassed that of all], and His glory was great [and wonderful].	27. And I saw a certain One[*], and His glory was great[*].
28a. [And after I had seen Him], all the righteous whom I had seen [and also the angels whom I had seen came to Him].	28a.[*], all the righteous whom I had seen[*].
28b. And Adam and Abel and Seth and all the righteous first drew near and worshipped Him, and they all praised Him with one voice,	28b. And Adam and Abel and Seth and all the righteous first drew near and worshipped Him, and they all praised Him with one voice,
28c. and I myself also gave praise with them, and /my giving of praise was as theirs/.	28c. and I myself also gave praise with them, and /and their giving of praise was as that of those (so ms S, or 'the voice was as that of those' as in L2)/.
29. /And then all the angels drew nigh and worshipped and gave praise./	29. /and then (so ms S, L2 omits these two opening words) Michael approached and worshipped and with him all the angels./
30. And /he (i.e., Christ) was transformed/ and became like an angel. 31. And thereupon the angel who conducted me said to me: "/Worship/ this One," and I worshipped and praised.	30. And /I was (again) transformed/ and became like an angel. 31. And thereupon the angel who conducted me said to me: "/Worship and praise/ this One," and I worshipped and praised.
32. And the angel said unto me: "This is the Lord of all the praise-givings which thou hast seen."	32. And the angel said unto me: "This is the Lord of all the praise-givings which thou hast seen."
33. /And whilst I was still speaking/, I saw another Glorious One who was like Him[*], and the righteous drew nigh and worshipped and praised, and /I praised/ together with them. But /His/ (Charles emends this to 'My') glory was not transformed into accordance with their form.	33. /And whilst He was still speaking/ (so S, but L2 omits the whole phrase], I saw another Glorious One who was like Him [in all things], and the righteous drew nigh and worshipped and praised, and /be praised/ together with them. But /His/ glory was not transformed into accordance with their form.
34. And thereupon the angels drew near and worshipped Him. 35. And I saw the Lord and the second angel, and they were standing.	34. And thereupon the angels drew near and worshipped Him. 35. And I saw the Lord and the second angel, and they were standing.
36. And the second whom I saw was on he left of my Lord. And I asked: "Who is this?" and he said unto me: "Worship Him, for He is the angel of the Holy Spirit, who /has spoken/ in thee and the rest of the righteous."	36. And the second whom I saw was on he left of my Lord. And I asked: "Who is this?" and he said unto me: "Worship Him, for He is the angel of the Holy Spirit, who /speaketh/ in thee and the rest of the righteous."
37. And I saw the great glory, /the eyes of my spirit being open/, and I could not thereupon see, nor yet could the angel who was with me, nor all the angels whom I had seen worshipping my Lord.	37. And I saw the great glory, /and I was unable to open my eyes of the spirit/, and I could not thereupon see, nor yet could the angel who was with me, nor all the angels whom I had seen worshipping my Lord.
38. But I saw the righteous beholding with great power the glory of that One.	38. But I saw the righteous beholding with great power the glory of that One.
39. And my Lord drew nigh to me and the angel of the Spirit [and He said: "See how it is given to thee to see God, and on thy account power is given to the angel who is with thee.]"	39. And my Lord drew nigh to me and the angel of the Spirit[*]
40. [And I saw how my Lord and the angel of the Spirit] worshipped, and they both together praised [God].	40.[*] worshipped, and they both together praised[*].
41. And thereupon all the righteous [drew near and] worshipped. 42. And the angels [drew near] and worshipped and all the angels praised.	41. And thereupon all the righteous[*] worshipped. 42. And the angels[*] and worshipped and all the angels praised.

DCHindley

Here's Chapter 10

CHAPTER 10.1 AND thereupon I heard the voices and the giving of praise, which I had heard in each of the six heavens, /which I had heard ascending hither ( so Eth ms b, or 'when ascending hither' as in Eth ms a & c)/:	CHAPTER 10.1 AND thereupon I heard the voices and the giving of praise, which I had heard in each of the six heavens, /ascending and being heard there/ (per L2):
2. And all were being sent up to that Glorious One whose glory I could not behold. 3. And I myself was hearing and beholding the praise (which was given) to Him. 4. And the Lord and the angel of the Spirit were beholding all and hearing all. 5. And all the praises which are sent up from the six heavens are not only heard, but seen.	2. And all were being sent up to that Glorious One whose glory I could not behold. 3. And I myself was hearing and beholding the praise (which was given) to Him. 4. And the Lord and the angel of the Spirit were beholding all and hearing all. 5. And all the praises which are sent up from the six heavens are not only heard, but seen.
6. /And I heard the angel who conducted me and he said/: /"This is the Most High of the high ones, dwelling in the holy world, and resting in His holy ones, who will be called by the Holy Spirit through the lips of the righteous the Father of the Lord."/ (based on Isa. 57:15)	6. /And the angel said unto me/: /"This is the living Eternal One, and the world in the saints, resting on high, whose name is neither a gift nor can we endure; which has been chanted by the Holy Spirit in the mouth of the just."/ (not based on Isa. 57:15)
7. And I heard the voice of the Most High, [the Father of my Lord], saying to my Lord [Christ who will be called Jesus]:	7. And I heard the voice of the Most High,[*], saying to my Lord[*]:
8. "Go forth and descent through all the heavens, and thou wilt descent to [the firmament and] that world: to the angel in Sheol thou wilt descend, [but to Haguel thou wilt not go]. 9. And thou wilt become like unto the likeness of all who are in the five heavens.	8. "Go forth and descent through all the heavens, and thou wilt descent to[*] that world: to the angel in Sheol thou wilt descend,[*]. 9. And thou wilt become like unto the likeness of all who are in the five heavens.
10. [And thou wilt be careful to become like the form of the angels of the firmament (and the angels also who are in Sheol)] (Charles thinks this last sentence may be an interpolation or gloss).	10.[*].
11. And none of the angels of that world shall know [that Thou art Lord with Me of the seven heavens and of their angels.] 12. [And they shall not know that Thou art with Me, till with a loud voice I have called (to) the heavens, and their angels and their lights, (even) unto the sixth heaven, in order that you mayest] judge [and destroy] the princes and angels [and gods] of that world, and the world that is dominated by them:	11. And none of the angels of that world shall know[*]. 12.[*] Judge (you)[*] the princes and angels[*] of that world, and the world that is dominated by them:
13. For they have denied Me and said: "We alone are and there is none beside us."	13. For they have denied Me and said: "We alone are and there is none beside us."
14. And afterwards /from the (gods) of death Thou wilt ascend/ (so Eth ms a & c, or 'and when Thou hast died and risen Thou wilt ascend' as in ms b, which mirrors Latin ms S) to Thy place. And Thou wilt not be transformed in each heaven, but in glory wilt Thou ascend and sit on My right hand.	14. And afterwards /when out of the earth, you will raise/ (so ms S, but L2 omits this clause) to Thy place. And Thou wilt not be transformed in each heaven, but in glory wilt Thou ascend and sit on My right hand.
15a. And thereupon the princes and powers /of that world/ (Charles - this phrase may be a corruption) will worship Thee."	15a. And thereupon the princes and powers /and angels and all principalities/ will worship Thee,
15b.[*]	15b. [which are in heaven and on earth and under the earth.]"
16. These commands I heard the Great Glory giving to my Lord. 17. And /so/ I saw my Lord go forth from the seventh heaven into the sixth heaven.	16. These commands I heard the Great Glory giving to my Lord. 17. And /then/ I saw my Lord go forth from the seventh heaven into the sixth heaven.
18. And the angel who conducted me [from this world was with me and] said unto me: "Understand, Isaiah, and see /in order that thou mayst see (so Eth ms a, or 'know' as in ms b), the transformation of the Lord./."	18. And the angel who conducted me[*] said unto me: "Understand, Isaiah, and see /how the transformation and descent of the Lord will appear./"
19. And I saw, and when the angels saw Him, [thereupon those in the sixth heaven] praised and lauded Him; for He had not been transformed after the shape of the angels there, [and they praised Him] and I also praised with them.	19. And I saw, and when the angels saw Him,[*] praised and lauded Him; for He had not been transformed after the shape of the angels there,[*] and I also praised with them.
20. And I saw when He descended into the fifth heaven, that in the fifth heaven He made Himself like unto the form of the angels there, and they did not praise Him (nor worship Him); for His form was like unto theirs. 21. And then He descended into the forth heaven, and made Himself like unto the form of the angels there. 22. [And when they saw Him], they did not praise [or laud Him]; for His form was like unto their form.	20. And I saw when He descended into the fifth heaven, that in the fifth heaven He made Himself like unto the form of the angels there, and they did not praise Him (nor worship Him); for His form was like unto theirs. 21. And then He descended into the forth heaven, and made Himself like unto the form of the angels there. 22. And when they saw Him, they did not praise or laud Him; for His form was like unto their form.
23a. /And again I saw when He descended into the third heaven,/ 23b. [and He made Himself like unto the form of the angels in the third heaven].	23a. /And so he came into the third heaven,/ 23b.[*]
24. [And those who kept the gate of the (third) heaven demanded the password (or "passport"), and the Lord gave (it) to them in order that He should not be recognized. And when they saw Him, they did not praise or laud Him; for His form was like unto their form.] (Eth ms b also omits this verse)	24.[*]
25. /And again I saw when He descended into the second heaven, and again He gave the password there; those who kept the gate proceeded to demand and the Lord to give. 26. And I saw when He made Himself like unto the form of the angels in the second heaven, and they saw Him and they did not praise Him; for His form was like unto their form. 27. And again I saw when He descended into the first heaven, and there also He gave the password to those who kept the gate, and He made Himself like unto the form of the angels who were on the left of that throne, and they neither praised nor lauded Him; for His form was like unto their form. 28. But as for me no one asked me on account of the angel who conducted me./	25-28. /And into the second, and into the first, transforming himself in each of them. Therefore they do not sing to him, nor worshiped, for he seemed to be like them, and he showed the character (so L2, S has "sign") to the guards in each of the heavens/
29. And again He descended into the firmament /where dwelleth the ruler of this world/, and He gave the password to [those on the left], and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there; [but they were envying one another and fighting; for here there is a power of evil and envying about trifles].	29. And again He descended into the firmament /where dwelleth the ruler of this world/ (while this passage is in ms S, it is omitted in L2), and He gave the password to those on the left, and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there;[*].
30. And I saw when He descended [and made Himself like] unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them.	30. And I saw when He descended[*] unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them.
31. And He gave no password; [for one was plundering and doing violence to another] (explains why no angels were guarding the gates).	31. And He gave no password[*].(i.e., no angels were guarding the gates).

DCH