Freethought & Rationalism Archive

chrisengland · 03-04-2008, 11:40 AM

OCD is a strange condition' it can make you do all kinds of strange things!

Johnny Skeptic · 03-04-2008, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

If you or I were trying to influence a race of mammals on an alien planet, we would start "somewhere."

Well sure, but if you had the power of a God, and you wanted to convince as many humans as possible to believe that you exist, and to believe that they had good evidence regarding what you wanted them to do with their lives, it is reasonable to conclude that you would verbally or telephathically communicate the same messages to everyone in the world. In addition, you would not use written records as a primary source of communicating with humans and refuse to directly tell anyone about the written records yourself. Further, if you did decide to use written records as a primary source of communicating with humans, and decided that you wanted to exclusively use humans to spread the messages of your writings, you would surely prefer to have 10,000 only begotten Sons of God all over the world to having only one only begotten Son of God in only one place since having only one only begotten Son of God would ensure that millions of people would die without hearing the messages.

It is not likely that a God would only want people to hear the Gospel message is another person told them about it, and would only want people to have enough food to eat if they were able to obtain it through human effort. If the universe is naturalistic, of if a God exists who is not concerned with the lives of humans, that explains why the messages in all religious books are spread entirely by human effort, and why humans are only able to obtain enough food to eat through human effort.

You and I had lots of discussions at the Theology Web. I do not have any idea why you always refuse to reply to my posts at the IIDB except for the possibility that you believe that my arguments are too difficult for you to adequately refute.

Doug Shaver · 03-05-2008, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Jesus taught that even the miracle of someone rising from the dead and warning a man of the consequences of rebelling against God will not convince him

We don't know what Jesus taught, even assuming his existence. We know only of some teachings that the gospel authors attributed to him.

juergen · 03-05-2008, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisengland

Hello
I have ocd that's why I kept writing those messages yersterday.
It's gotten worse I think because of some stressful situations lately.
It's quite an unusual reason why I kept doing it.
It was not to be cruel or vindictive.

No problem, mate. :wave:

aChristian · 03-05-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

I started thinking about this after one of my co-workers asked me a question. I will reveal this question at the end of the post.

Here is why I may be close to deconversion:

OK, picture this.

We have all seen what the view of Earth is like from a plane? Everyone looks like ants. Now, picture our solar system and universe as a wooden board stretching out widely. Now, imagine BEYOND the universe, (or board if you will), we see God in his realm of existence.

Now, in order for me to stay a Christian, this is what I must believe:

God chose one part of the world in about 900 B.C. to start Genesis.

He developed a closeness with Jewish people for some strange reason. He picks Israel as his "favorite nation" for unknown reasons instead of the whole world.

He writes down prophecies in books not labeled "prophecies of the messiah" but instead "hidden" in people's songs to God or ramblings.

God then wants to save everyone, so he comes to earth in early first century to just one place - Jerusalem and a little surrounding areas. He doesn't see a need to have too much of his childhood written about. His birth is there, then a few little childhood stories and that's it.

Then his existence vanishes on earth from ages 13-29 and then his life picks up again at age 30. What was the all important God doing for these missing 17 years? How could he have been so caring and important?

Then at age 30 he says some vague preaching for 3 years to only a select group of people in a select part of the world, gets crucified in only one part of the world, shows up to just a small group of people, then tells these people "Gotta get out of here see ya! Oh preach the Gospel by the way to all the earth."

He then vanishes, leaving hardly any historians writing about all his miraculous deeds, and there's wars in his name for the past 2,000 years and still no sign of him coming back.

Does this make ANY SENSE to ANYONE?

and yet I have been believing this my whole life!!

I see no reason why God couldn't have come to Earth as man in all the nations, be crucified, and then the story would be known throughout all nations, instead of him picking a random little spot to preach to 12 men and gain a little following and hoping they would spread it.

Ask yourself. if ANY of you guys were God, would this be the way you want to save humanity? 3 years of vague teachings with hardly anything about your life growing up? Why couldn't Jesus have been healing as a 5 year old? That would've made for so many more believers.

Now, wanna know the one question my friend asked me that made me think like this?

he said, "Of course we know that god exists.................in the Bible. The question is, does god exist OUTSIDE of the Bible?"

My eyes were opened when he said this and I immediately started thinking of what the Christian God is ACTUALLY portrayed as.

(NOTE: I put this in this forum because it deals with just reading the Bible to come up with this conclusion.)

I don't know if I am fully deconverted yet, but it seems to me that idea of worshipping such a clumsy god makes no sense anymore.

What do you guys think?

If you are still there, I have a few thoughts.
First of all, you have many mistaken ideas about God, the Bible, and Christianity and I won't address them at this time unless you are really interested in what I think.
What I thought that I would focus on was your doubts and fear of hell. Hell is something to be feared and it is real. Maybe one reason you find it hard to deny God is that you have not made yourself blind enough to deny the obvious evidences of God's existence. Paul said that Christians should "no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart." (Eph. 4:17,18)
Another thought I have is that if you really deny God's existence, if you accept as fact that this universe is the result of blind chance, then if you logically follow this to its conclusion you have a big problem. This would mean that everything is just matter and energy. There would be no difference between the electrical impulses in you brain and a lightening bolt. The electricity would just be flowing between two different places. There is no intrinsic difference, they are both just random flows of current. It would mean that all of your thoughts are meaningless, random electrical currents. There is no logic, just random charges going about in your brain. In fact there is no 'you'. What you perceive as 'you' is just a hunk of matter with energy randomly flowing through it. What you perceive as your logic (with which you are arguing) would be just random electrical discharges. There would be no you, no meaning in anything, just matter and energy bouncing about in an empty universe. This doesn't ring true to me and yes, I do believe there really is a 'me' that is thinking this. I believe this because I have an accurate view of the universe because I believe the Bible. You also don't need to be afraid to check out the Bible. Since it is true, you will find it to be so if you check it out honestly. As I said, many of your ideas about the Bible are incorrect, but that can come later if you are interested.

juergen · 03-05-2008, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

First of all, you have many mistaken ideas about God, the Bible, and Christianity and I won't address them at this time unless you are really interested in what I think.

I'm sorry for stepping in like this, but who is him having many mistaken ideas about God, the Bible, and Christianity according to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

What I thought that I would focus on was your doubts and fear of hell. Hell is something to be feared and it is real.

Recently I heard a recording of a small group of people that had been in hell and seen everything and came back. The soundtrack was very horror-like, and the descriptions looked like stuff out of a comic book, a gore movie, or possibly a Marylin Manson-type video down to the worms in the skulls and John Lennon. I listened to this when I was a Christian, and I didn't expect this, but it was so badly put together, and the ideas so "B-Movie Type" predictable, there was nothing left but then to reject personal testimony about anything coming out of it.

And these are people that 'have literally been in hell.'

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Another thought I have is that if you really deny God's existence, if you accept as fact that this universe is the result of blind chance, then if you logically follow this to its conclusion you have a big problem. This would mean that everything is just matter and energy. There would be no difference between the electrical impulses in you brain and a lightening bolt. The electricity would just be flowing between two different places. There is no intrinsic difference, they are both just random flows of current. It would mean that all of your thoughts are meaningless, random electrical currents. There is no logic, just random charges going about in your brain. In fact there is no 'you'. What you perceive as 'you' is just a hunk of matter with energy randomly flowing through it. What you perceive as your logic (with which you are arguing) would be just random electrical discharges.

Life is still very beautiful to a non-believer. Incredibly beautiful. I know I am juergen, I get to know myself better because I'm getting a bit older, I have learned to value my family higher, which has been awesome, and I'm starting to understand how they see me. I think logic's great. Greeks really liked it, our sewer systems work like a charm, it builds us computers and gets us where we need to be with prescription medicine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

There would be no you, no meaning in anything, just matter and energy bouncing about in an empty universe.

But it's a beautiful universe. However it works doesn't go away by the beauty of it, and was never meant to replace it, just to explain how stuff works. The theory of gravity doesn't make me any less astonished looking at stuff that falls down after I let go of it. Maybe it's a bit more fascinating if you don't know zip about the theory of gravity, but the theory of gravity doesn't go away. If you put yourself in that state of mind to see what happens if you let it go, it always falls down. It's boringly obvious but fascinating in its own way. Or maybe I'm just of the nerdish persuasion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

This doesn't ring true to me and yes, I do believe there really is a 'me' that is thinking this. I believe this because I have an accurate view of the universe because I believe the Bible.

You make it sound as though only people that have viewed the universe through the Bible have a strong identity and understand life. If that is true, what about all the others who have a accurate view of the universe and aren't Christians? What about all the others who have an inacucurate view of the universe and are Christians?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

You also don't need to be afraid to check out the Bible. Since it is true, you will find it to be so if you check it out honestly. As I said, many of your ideas about the Bible are incorrect, but that can come later if you are interested.

It's because of the Bible that he's having this problem. A lot of questions can be explained very well, even about how things work in Christianity, when one sees it from a more cautious perspective.

GenesisNemesis · 03-05-2008, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

If you are still there, I have a few thoughts.
First of all, you have many mistaken ideas about God, the Bible, and Christianity and I won't address them at this time unless you are really interested in what I think.
What I thought that I would focus on was your doubts and fear of hell. Hell is something to be feared and it is real. Maybe one reason you find it hard to deny God is that you have not made yourself blind enough to deny the obvious evidences of God's existence. Paul said that Christians should "no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart." (Eph. 4:17,18)
Another thought I have is that if you really deny God's existence, if you accept as fact that this universe is the result of blind chance, then if you logically follow this to its conclusion you have a big problem. This would mean that everything is just matter and energy. There would be no difference between the electrical impulses in you brain and a lightening bolt. The electricity would just be flowing between two different places. There is no intrinsic difference, they are both just random flows of current. It would mean that all of your thoughts are meaningless, random electrical currents. There is no logic, just random charges going about in your brain. In fact there is no 'you'. What you perceive as 'you' is just a hunk of matter with energy randomly flowing through it. What you perceive as your logic (with which you are arguing) would be just random electrical discharges. There would be no you, no meaning in anything, just matter and energy bouncing about in an empty universe. This doesn't ring true to me and yes, I do believe there really is a 'me' that is thinking this. I believe this because I have an accurate view of the universe because I believe the Bible. You also don't need to be afraid to check out the Bible. Since it is true, you will find it to be so if you check it out honestly. As I said, many of your ideas about the Bible are incorrect, but that can come later if you are interested.

You are assuming a lot, here.

Solitary Man · 03-05-2008, 09:54 PM

Quote:

I believe this because I have an accurate view of the universe because I believe the Bible.

Sorry, but... :rolling:

Solitary Man · 03-05-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

Maybe it's a bit more fascinating if you don't know zip about the theory of gravity, but the theory of gravity doesn't go away.

Ah, really? For me, the reasons for the theory of gravity, of special relativity, are mind-blowing. Warped space? Giant bodies? String theory. Far more fascinating than...things go down.

juergen · 03-05-2008, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by juergen

Maybe it's a bit more fascinating if you don't know zip about the theory of gravity, but the theory of gravity doesn't go away.

Ah, really? For me, the reasons for the theory of gravity, of special relativity, are mind-blowing. Warped space? Giant bodies? String theory. Far more fascinating than...things go down.

For me too. I was just attempting to put myself into the shoes of someone who didn't know zip about gravity and about how mysterious it would seem to this person, but I might have missed the target.

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03-04-2008, 11:40 AM	#121
chrisengland Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bristol' England Posts: 2,678	OCD is a strange condition' it can make you do all kinds of strange things!

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