Space Chef

Hi Giant Rabbit. I was brought up a Lutheran and I've almost converted to Islam a few times.

As far as the Quran and scientific miracles, it's all a lie. Here's the Quran's view of the universe:



from this site.

Also, check out Freethought Mecca.

JohNeo

Welcome! :wave:

lpetrich

Also check out the Skeptics' Annotated Koran and this site's Islam library. And also this thread on the origin of the Koran, especially my (lpetrich's) contributions.

Spookie Here

Giant Rabbit:
You seem like a thoughtful and kind person. Do you or the friends you know sometimes wonder about the situation in Iraq? How do we resolve the situation there? I hope I am not seeming to be too intrusive. By the way, regarding Pagans, the situation does not look good for them, as you say, even though theirs is among the first of the religions.

post tenebras lux

Darn it Ipetrich - you beat me to posting those sites!

Hi and welcome Giant Rabbit, I hope you enjoy it here and forgive us if a lot of the time some of us forget about monotheistic gods other than the Judeo-Christian one(s). I know the Islamic one differs in several ways but haven't had enough time to check in detail.

In addition to the sites mentioned above, try just googling 'Alexander', as in The Great, and 'koran' and see where that leads. I seem to remember that the Koran has him as a devout muslim (he considered himself as a god and liked young men), living to an old age (not), and finding the actual pools where the sun rose and set. Along the way he found (or built - I can't remember) a giant iron gate holding back a massive tribe until the end times and talked to god about them. I think that they may have been Gog MaGog.

As for the science in the koran, a lot of the basic stuff is less advanced than existant secular sources were (has the bones forming first in an embryo, for example) whilst the advanced science is only obtained by reinterpreting odd phrases here and there in peculiar ways that would be unintelligable in Mohamed's time. Plus there are only a few.
This is one thing we are used to here as - some of us at least - think that creative reinterpretaion of the bible also occurs.

If I understood it right, Islam is less slap liberal than Judaism or Christianity when it comes to miracles, but the one it has - the Koran - is at least testable (one difference with the Judeo-Christian one whose miracles aren't testable). As I understand it, sceptics have claimed that the Koran isn't miraculous as it contains very bad grammar, foreign words when arab ones already existed, and nonsense words and even sentences. Checking the pro and anti literature on this subject may help. I know whole books have been written explaining these from an islamic viewpoint but the few explanations I have read have seemed very very stretched.

If you'd like a few more suggestions, please let me know and I'll dig up some papers that are buried somewhere in some cupboard. I remember that there are quite a few contradictions (or apparent ones, anyway) such as whether Jesus will get to heaven or not.

Once again, welcome

Luxie

Bright Life

I'd just like to give you a warm welcome and let you know, there is hope. So many people here have escaped the terrible feelings of guilt and shame they experienced with religion. I know you can too.

Stay safe,

BL

Kydka

Welcome to the forums! :wave:

Hedshaker

I know what context you mean when you compare "heart and mind" in this way. As a youth brought up in the Catholic faith I accepted the Christian God and catholic doctrine, but I'm not totally sure if I really, really believed it in my heart. Even then I had trouble accepting things purely on faith but still I lived the life. Later I began to question those theist beliefs and over time it became obvious to me that the whole thing was false. The more I grew the more it felt wrong and the more I realised it was not "the truth" as I had been told. I could not go on living a lie so discontinued considering my self Catholic.

Atheism for me was a natural progression from fake beliefs to a healthy world view.

In my "heart and mind" I'm a better person for it.

Orbit

Giant Rabbit

Thanks for all your welcomes. Little - you did not offend me at all

Space Chef - I have read some of your threads regarding Islam before when I have google-searched things like "islaam fear". Thanks to all who have posted links. However, in reference to the diagram, apparently the word 'orbit' is alsp rotation and apparently the sun does rotate albeit slowly. Muslims claim that the knowledge of the rotation of the sun is miraculous. Secondly, the Quran does not really state the earth is flat but does state that it was "spread out" so that point isn't clear. The "fixed abode" thing could I guess mean that we arent spining and moving inside the earth or that earth is a closed-system which is stable. When it comes to things like the throne of God etc, I think you are talking about another world which is invisible like the Angels, Jinn etc.

Ipetrich, some of the links are great - I would love if ahigh-ranking Islamic scholar (as opposed to one that has learned religious rules in a parrot-fashion) could debate some of those things with you. I always ffear that I dont have the right knowledge to really debate these things. Muslims have answers for some of the questions asked but I see few educated Muslims taking up debates online ; mainly because scholars seem to spend most their tie in the mosque teaching and praying.

Hi Yahzi - that is interesting. However I still would like to leave alone those who believe strongly and whose faith is unshakable and only talk to and help those who seek alternative points of view. We cannot prove categorically the absence of God or religion just as they can't prove His/its existence so there is always a stalemate and I dont see the point of anger and hatred in that respect.

Iraq probably belongs on another part of the forum but it is tough. Most Muslims were against the war. I was against it - marched with 1 million people in London. The reasons given were two; firstly that Iraq had WMD's and secondly that UN resolutions were breached. The former has been proved flase and the latter was not accepted by the UN itself! I think political, militatry and economic factors played the major roles for invasion of Iraq

With regards to the current Shia uprising, it seems so pointless and sad. So many lives being lost, Such historical buildings being lost and with no forseeable positive end result. Al Sadr sems to be enjoying the attention - many of the Muslim world seem to see the US as the big Satan; the system of the anti-christ and they loathe the fact that the US has entered their country and are afaid fo a puppet-government being installed. It's a tricky situation with no easy way out.

Thanks to Kydka, John Neo, Luxie and Bright Life for the welcome. I hope we can learn a lot from each other and that we all find a peaceful way to live both in terms of inner-peace and peace between us :thumbs:

Giant Rabbit

Thanks for the info Luxie; I dbe happy to read any other pieces of information you can post on the matter but dont go to too much trouble . I really wish it was easier to go to Muslims scholars to debate this stuff but from a doubting Muslim they would not take kindly to it I think. For socio-cultural reasons my religion isnt as open as it should be.

Orbit - thanks for understanding. My heart finds things hard to accept in Islam but it is not defeated in my head. If my heart cant follow what my mind tells me then maybe my bad heart deserves hell :huh: It's a thought that recurrs.