Sheshbazzar

So you think he got his weenie whacked and became a Jewish proselyte? Where does he tell you that?

There is no evidence that Plato the pagan philosopher ever embraced the religion of Judaism.

Plato was a pagan Greek philosoper.

Plato wasn't Jewish by faith.

stephan huller

no one says he was circumcised. no says he desired to become Jewish. The general idea in antiquity was that there was some relationship between Moses and Plato. Nietzsche attributed it to a common origin in Egypt (= Plato's philosophy). It might have been Pythagoreanism. Who knows. The exact nature of Plato's appropriation from Judaism is never specifically fleshed out as far as I know. They just put an argument or a legend to justify their use of Plato and Pythagoreanism.

stephan huller

One interesting point however is that all Jews take an interest in numerology but that interest extends to Samaritans too. This 'Pythagoreanism' then likely extends to a period before the official break between the two communities. Marqe demonstrates a profound knowledge of Greek philosophy however too so it is hard to find early Hebrew numerology divorced from openness to Greek philosophy. The famous Jewish Platonists Justus of Tiberius, King Marcus Julius Agrippa, the Samaritan Marqe and the later Samaritan neo-Platonist Marinus show that the affinity for Platonism never stopped. It is unlikely that anyone could have forced the Jews to become numerologists or for that matter take an interest in Plato or Greek philosophy. There was a clear attraction to philosophy in no small part because it was ultimately a secular pursuit (i.e. not tied to a particular pagan cult) and this distinction allowed 'philosophy' (love of wisdom) to flourish among the Jews guilt free at least initially.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinus_of_Neapolis

stephan huller

What the example of Plato shows however is that it would be impossible for Philo to have tolerated a pagan group. A myth had to be invented to connect Plato to Judaism in order for him to be acceptable. According to Philo, Moses anticipated Plato by teaching that water, darkness, and chaos existed before the world came into being (Op. 22). Philo equates Moses' experiences with God to Plato's quest for the Good (Wilson 153). Philo considers Plato's writings to be sacred, and uses Plato's concepts to defend the laws and customs of the Jewish people (Benson). Philo also again contends that the Greek philosophers derived their "wisdom" from Moses and the Laws of God.

stephan huller

Robert is used to using the writings of dead people so he can transform their writings into a mouthpiece for Acharya S. Why not contact Taylor yourself and ask if she would go along with your puppet-master's idiotic beliefs? Name the amount let's put a wager on it if you are so confident of Taylor supporting your (limited - I only see three names regularly participating in Freethought Nation) New Age cult.

stephan huller

The question of how and why Jews and Samaritans (= Sadducees) adopted Plato and Greek philosophy to such a degree is a fascinating question and undoubtedly goes back to rich and educated Jews and Samaritan integrating themselves into the Hellenistic world around them. It is much like challenge that Jews face in the various cultures they lived in. There were Jews that converted to Islam, there were Jews who converted to Christianity (both monotheistic religions which accepted and developed from the Mosaic covenant). I don't know of any examples of communities of Jews that adopted paganism. There are the claims of the Maccabees series but these works have to be taken with a grain of salt. The writers might have objected to cosmopolitanism or 'Hellenism' in any form with in the Jewish community. In other words, they were probably resentful of the ruling class of Sadducees who had in their mind betrayed the true spirit of the religion.

The idea that there was this 'proud, independent Jewish culture' before Hellenism makes no sense. The Jews of former generations were kissing the ass of the Persians and incorporated various Persian ideas in the Pentateuch. Nevertheless they undoubtedly admired and agreed with the strict monotheistic Zoroastrian culture that existed in the Empire at the time. The point however is that as the Pentateuch makes no reference to the Israelites forming any of the basic requirements of a functioning state (i.e. king, raising armies etc) basically shows that it was a book made by priests with the intention of accepting foreign rule over their community and projecting that 'accommodation' into the earliest period of their nation's existence.

The idea however that Philo could be (a) a leader of the Jewish community in Alexandria (b) to have been so hostile to paganism (c) to have ended up contending with the Emperor over the issue of Jewish refusal to embrace paganism was in turn extolling 'Jewish pagans' or 'Jewish Buddhists' in a treatise that is virulently hostile to paganism is simply untenable and ridiculous. The Persians were undoubted disgusted by paganism. So too some Greek philosophers. So too the Hebrew nation.

Sheshbazzar

I do not have any of the writings of these Alexandrian Therapeutae. Do you stephan?

I do not have any way of determining how careful they were, or were not in their speech or writings.

We actually know very little about the Alexandrian Therapeutae.

Most of what is written is nothing more than speculations, surmisings, and opinions being ASSUMED, presented, misrepresented, and asserted as being facts, which they are not.
Even the most famous of scholars tend to fall into this rut of unprovinanced confomity with unsupported opinion.

So no. I DO NOT pretend to know whether the Alexandrian Therapeutae were 'corrupted by Hellenism', although it is highly likely.

But Philo's writings we DO have, and I read them, and they leave me with absolutely not a shadow of doubt that are the product of religious syncretism, and are heavily loaded with the baggage of Hellenistic pagan philosophy and pagan religious terms that were lifted directly from the Greek's pagan religions.
That is what you ASSUME. Don't we all know it by now?

You ASSUME a LOT of things. It tends to make an *** out of you, and one out of me if I'm become stupid enough to buy your ASSumptions.


I see in Philo's description of the Alexandrian Therapeutae a religious group with practices unlike anything that is identifiably 'Jewish' or identifiably 'Christian'.

I see that total lack of anything at all critical of any of their beliefs or practices as indicating a huge hole in our picture of their real place within religion.

Particularly, that close examination of Philo's description in VC indicates that the these Alexandrian Thereputae lived as virtual hermits six days a week, not going out of their 'house'/'monasteries', or even so much as looking outside during the daylight hours.
That in each of these individual house/'monasteries' it was forbidden to bring in or to consume any food or water.
There was 'shrine which was called the Most Holy Place' within each of these one man house/monasteries.

The common meeting place, called the Temple was where meals were served. Philo mentions NOTHING anywhere about there being any 'shrine' or 'Holy Place' in this common meeting place.
Although almost every Jew now wishes to ASSume that there was.

Philo does however write;
This things, the individual 'monasteries' with 'shrines' in each one.
With the priests shunning all social contact, holeing up in a bare 'house'/'monastery', going without food or water during all daylight hours, six days out of every week,

Plus engagining in a unique and regular bread and hyssop ritual that does not appear within either the Jewish or the Christian religious traditions,
followed by all-night religious Festivals. Is NOT a description of any otherwise known religious group.

Which strongly argues for these Alexanderian Therapeutae being a unique religious cult.
The religion of Judaism shows no sign of having given, or of having instructed them these practices, neither does Judaisim display any record of having embraced or continued these practices after the Alexandrian Thereapeutae passed from history.

There is no continuation of those Alexanderian Therapeutae's manner of six day a week monasticim, or of those worship practices as are decribed in Philo's 'VC'.
No sect of Christianity qualifies as having continued those practices, and no sect of Judaism is known to have done so either.

So in my view, there are far too many things you and your cronies are collectively assuming, and far too much that you are attempting to keep a blind eye turned to.

Based on these things, it is my opinion that these Alexanderian Therapeutae were neither Christian nor Jewish.
The Alexandrian Therapeutae a represent totally dead religion that no longer has any practitioners.

stephan huller

"Alexanderian" is repeatedly referenced in your response. How am I going to change the mind of a Philistine? We've gone over this a million times. The shrine is found in Ethiopian monasteries a culturally generally thought to have developed from a unique Jewish milieu connected with the Essenes and Therapeutae. But it is the 364 day calendar is key - no one has addressed that. How many other cultures are interested in the seventh day like this? None. It's Jewish. But judging by your vast knowledge of 'Alexanderian' Judaism it would seem that you would want us to expect a universal pattern among 'Romanian Jewry' in Rome, 'Jerusalemy Jews' in Jerusalem, 'Antiochiochan' Jews in Antioch and so on. It doesn't work like that.

The 364 day calendar is referenced as being utilized by 'Alexanderian' Jews centuries before the Therapeutae. There is simply no point arguing with a Philstine. You haven't so much as developed an argument for the Therapeutae being anything than Jewish. What happens instead is that when I come close to convincing you, you fall back on your 'bastard' this, and 'corrupt' that. Yes they may be Jews, you mutter to yourself, but they were 'really' traitors to Judaism followed by some expletive directed against a 'false religion' you don't like. This is utterly pointless. I am trying to convince you to see reason not trying to rehabilitate you.

Address the 364 day calendar. Explain the parallel with Jewish 'Alexanderians' as you call them from centuries before Philo and then I will be satisfied that you aren't a complete nuisance.

Clivedurdle

Didn't the Jews get monotheism from Zarathustra, Cyrus and Darius?

stephan huller

More or less.