spin

You might have provided a relevant paragraph with the link, such as:


spin

Johnny Skeptic

You are grossly mistaken. Both sides are essentially trying to convince the undecided crowd, not each other. I want to show the undecided crowd that even if Jesus “did� rise from the dead, that did not even come close to reasonably proving that his death will ever be of any ultimate benefit to anyone. There is no logical correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead and goodness. I challenge any Christian to reasonable prove that God is good and that Jesus ever performed a miracle.

If Elvis Presley rose from the dead, proved that he had abilities beyond those of humans, and said that he died for the sins of mankind, what would that prove about his true nature? The correct answer is, nothing at all.

Ted, it is quite obvious to everyone what people believed back then. Most people with various world views believed that the earth was flat, and they were all wrong. The truth is the main issue, not what people believed.

I defend what I believe, and Christians defend what they believe, but you never defend what you believe. You are quite willing to attack what I believe, but you have always been unwilling to defend what you believe. You are a Deist, and you have always avoided defending Deism. You never attack Christianity to any great extent because you believe that whatever will ultimately happen to Christians will ultimately happen to you, or vice versa. So, debating you is essentially just like debating a Christian. Over the past few years I have debated a lot of people, and other than you I have never found anyone who was unwilling to state and defend what they believe.

Let’s get something straight, Ted. Do you or do you not object to fundamentalist Christians who attempt to legislate their religious views? Fundamentalist Christians are the chief opponents of homosexuality, same sex marriage and physician assisted suicide? Does that include you? I predict that you will refuse to answer my question. You are the most evasive person that I have ever found at the Internet.

Ah, the fallacy of “argumentum ad populum.� If most people believe that the earth is flat, then it must be flat, right? If Islam were to one day become the largest religion in the world, everyone should become a Muslim, right? Today, there are over one billion Muslims. Islam is growing faster than Christianity is growing. Christianity had about a 600 year start over Islam. The number of atheists and agnostics per capita is at an all time high. Deism continues to grow in popularity.

According to your “argumentum ad populum� argument, no one should have become a Christian until the church got large, is that right?

I ought to know what the message is. I was a fundamentalist Christian for over 35 years. Dan Barker used to be a Baptist preacher. Farrell was a conservative Christian for a number of years. Please don’t tell me that a person cannot become a Christian and later reject Christianity. The texts say that in the last days, many will turn away from the faith.

I suggest that you read my mini-essay at www.johnnyskeptic.com. It appears just before my main essay. In my mini-essay I concede the Resurrection for the sake of argument and actually end up with much better arguments than if I had asserted that Jesus did not rise from the dead. My mini-essay is irrefutable. I have found out from experience in a number of debates over the past few years that apologists are at a loss to adequately defend the nature of God. Hurricane Katrina and the recent tsunami in Asia are proof enough of that.

In less than a year and a half, I have gotten about 240,000 hits at my web site.

TedM

Who said otherwise? Let's look again at whether you are trying to find the truth or just claiming there is no proof:

It's obvious you are talking about proof. As I said this isn't about proof. For Christians the similarities are evidence enough, despite not having proof. Again: You can't prove a concept like dying for sins.

Why should I? This thread isn't about what I believe. I tried to point out that your use of Isaiah 53:4 isn't really the issue. Why didn't you point to Jesus' claims that he was a "ransom for many" instead of Isaiah, if your point was only about whether a man can die for sins? I assumed since you chose Isaiah, a prophecy, you were somehow also talking about its value as a prophecy--whether it was fulfilled or not. It really isn't that clear what you are saying about it from that standpoint. I pointed out its value to Christians.

It depends.

I"m not sure. I question the genetic basis for homosexuality, and I do think it in some if not the majority of cases reflects a developmental flaw in a person's upbringing, and therefore should not be encouraged in such cases. However, I do think a person has the right to follow one's own inclination if it is not harmful to others. As for assisted suicide, I'm not sure why that is an issue--what is the need for a physician? I think if a person wants to die, he has the right to do so, just as he has the right to leave the hospital and take a bunch of pills or jump off a cliff on his own. I see no need for a physician to be involved, and don't think physician assisted suicide should be sanctioned.


Am I still?


ted

cass256

You seem to have quite a high opinion of yourself. You certainly do not need anyone to agree with you.
You have got to be kidding! You actually believe that there is proof the god of the Bible favors the rich??? or that a natural disaster tied with innept Federal response proves that god doesn't favor poor people? Your essay didn't prove or disprove anything. IMO
You need to spend more time debating Christians that believe their god is vengeful towards non christians.
The Bible is proof in itself that the biblical god was angry vengeful and jealous. That god is a god of punishment.
The only question is wether or not Jesus paid the punishment price for the world, or those people that believe in him and worship the god of the OT.
Since Christians did not turn around and adhere to the 10 commandments, but instead changed them, they have no protection from the punishment the god of the old testament promised to those who did not follow his laws. Debating wether god of the bible is perfect and good, is like debating against the theory the world is flat. It is not impressive to win a self evident point. An idiot can debate that topic and win.

Johnny Skeptic

You did. You said that I wouldn’t change anyone’s mind with my position, but I never said that I was trying to change anyone’s mind. I told you that both sides are for the most part trying to influence people who “have not� made up their minds one way or the other.

[quote=TedM] Let's look again at whether you are trying to find the truth or just claiming there is no proof:

Quote:

“I want to show the undecided crowd that even if Jesus ‘did’ rise from the dead, that did not even come close to reasonably proving that his death will ever be of any ultimate benefit to anyone. There is no logical correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead and goodness. I challenge any Christian to reasonable prove that God is good and that Jesus ever performed a miracle. If Elvis Presley rose from the dead, proved that he had abilities beyond those of humans, and said that he died for the sins of mankind, what would that prove about his true nature? The correct answer is, nothing at all.�

What similarities are you talking about? If you are talking about Isaiah 53, all that you would be saying is that some people believed that the suffering servant was Jesus, and you admitted that there isn’t any reasonable proof that Jesus “did� die for the sins of mankind.

There is no logical correlation that can be made between the ability to predict the future and goodness. In other words, even if I concede that Jesus fulfilled every supposed prophecy in Isaiah except Isaiah 53:4, Christians lose hands down. For instance, even if Jesus “was� buried in a rich man’s tomb, that doesn’t prove anything at all about the nature of God. In addition, even if Jesus “did� ride a donkey into Jerusalem, that doesn’t prove anything at all about the nature of God.

Nice dodge, but it won’t work. If I start a new thread on “your� belief system, will you defend it? Of course you won’t. I defend what I believe, and Christians defend what they believe, but for some reason that you have refused to share with us, you don’t want to defend your belief system. Would you like to share your reason with us?

Isaiah 53:4 “is not� convincing to rational minded people. For the most part, it is only convincing to people who were “already� conservative Christians, who “after� they became conservative Christians essentially rubber stamped every single claim in the entire Bible. I was a conservative Christian for over 35 years. I never heard of Isaiah 53:4 until over 25 years after I became a Christian. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Billy Graham has seldom used the verse in his television programs. In short, “post hoc� endorsement of Isaiah 53:4 by conservative Christians is hardly a credible apologetic argument. Isaiah is merely preaching to choir.

[quote=JohnnySkeptic] Let’s get something straight, Ted. Do you or do you not object to fundamentalist Christians who attempt to legislate their religious views?

Many suffering people are unable to attempt suicide, i.e. people in nursing homes and quadriplegics. Some people who do make such attempts are unsuccessful and end up much worse off than they were before. If the authorities are aware that a person intends to attempt suicide for health reasons, or for any other reasons for that matter, that person will be locked up in mental hospital for observation until it has been judged that he is no longer a danger to himself.

Regarding you “don't think physician assisted suicide should be sanctioned,� it definitely should be sanctioned. Oregon is the only state in the U.S. where PAS is legal. The lethal cocktail that doctors in Oregon prescribe to terminally ill people who want to die is the very best way for those people to have a peaceful death in the presence of family and friends. Do you prefer that a suffering, terminally ill person who wants to die invite family and friends over to his home to watch him blow his brains out with a gun?

PAS is legal in Oregon, the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland. It has a lot of support in California, Hawaii, Maine, and some other states. A recent poll in Britain showed that 90% of the British people favor the legalization of PAS. The World Court in Brussels, Belgium is now addressing the issue. Some years ago, a province in Australia legalized PAS, but the federal government overturned the law.

It is no accident that the chief opponents of PAS are conservative Christians.

If you will refuse to defend your belief system in a new thread, which I predict that you will, my answer is yes.

cass256

That is typical of christians. So many years and so little clue about the nature of the god of the Bible. Athiests seem to have this problem as well. Arguments on hear say and not on what was actually written.

Johnny Skeptic

Actually, the real nature of the God of the Bible is unknown, except of course that he likes to kill people who disagree with his hearsay orderrs. I challenge Christians to reasonably prove otherwise.

TedM

I didn't say otherwise. You are addressing a different point entirely.

Sure, but I think most people that believe in someones ability to predict the future will tend to look for answers (ie goodness) from that person. Anyway, you really aren't addressing my point, still.

No, it is irrelevant to the point I've made in this thread which again is this: Of course no one can prove that Jesus died for man's sins. However, if one believes that Isaiah 54:4 predicted Jesus because of the similarities in the chapter to those of the gospel story, then it is understandable that one would also believe the message contained within that prophecy believed by that person to be supernatural.

Isaiah 53 sounds a lot like Jesus to me, and I'm pretty rational. I'm not convinced but can see why rational-minded people might be if they assume certain things I don't assume. It's really not just a 'rationality' issue. It is also a knowledge issue.

I agree it isn't a simple issue. I don't think doctors should be responsible for ending life, though I don't think they should be responsible for artificicially maintaining it under all conditions either.

Ok, stick with 'yes' then. I'm not here to defend political or religious beliefs.

ted

rlogan

Generally speaking, Christians have the direction of causality reversed.

A rational mind has to dismiss Nostradamus-type predictions at the outset. So one asks what is going on here instead of a miracle.

The mythical Jesus is a collage of HB material, and the lack of coherency is obvious simply by studying the whole of Isaiah, or whatever, as opposed to plucking little bits of it out of context and force-fitting what you want to see.

Johnny Skeptic

What in the world are you talking about? There isn't any evidence at all that the Bible authors used divine inspiration to predict the future even one single time. You frequently mention what some people believe, but by doing so you are state what everyone ALREADY knows. The point is, is what some people believe probably true? Should not our task be trying to determine what is true to the best of our abilities instead of discussing what some people believe when we ALREADY KNOW FULL WELL what some people believe. Please, Ted, quit stating what everyone ALREADY knows.

[quote=JohnnySkeptic] Nice dodge, but it won’t work. If I start a new thread on “your� belief system, will you defend it? Of course you won’t. I defend what I believe, and Christians defend what they believe, but for some reason that you have refused to share with us, you don’t want to defend your belief system. Would you like to share your reason with us?

But it IS NOT irrelevant to the point that EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO I KNOW OF WHO DEBATES AT VARIOUS WEB SITES EXCEPT FOR YOU DEFENDS THEIR WORLD VIEW AND WANTS TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT THEIR OWN WORLD VIEW IS RIGHT SO AS THE MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE TO LIVE IN. Don't you want to try to make the world a better place in which to live by changing some peoples' minds? What in the world are you doing at this forum? What are your agenda?

There you go again stating what some people believe. WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE. The point is yet again, IS WHAT SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE PROBABLY TRUE?

Then why aren't you a Christian?

In my previous post, I told you:

Do you get it Ted? Isaiah 53:4 is a useful apologetic argument mainly to people who are ALREADY Christians. I do not have any doubts whatsoever that many, if not most of the best-selling Christian books never mention the verse. Why don't you try out an experiment? Pick several non-Christians who you know and ask them if the verse is impressive to them.

Are you aware of anyone who does not think that they are rational?

You said that you are rational, that you are not convinced, and that rational minded people [like you] might be convinced if they assumed certain things. If you are rational and are not convinced, then what will you tell other rational minded people who are not convinced? Are you saying that it is rational to accept or reject the claim that Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 53:4?

That is not a rational point of view since physician assisted suicde offers suffering terminally ill people the only foolproof way of dying peaceful deaths in the presence of family member and friends. Any other view shows either a lack of compassion or a religious bias. Do you believe that a higher power helps us in tangible ways?

Well, that puts you in a minority of one.