Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 08-31-2005, 09:45 PM

This reminds me of a Biblical argument I once thought of for evolution in general; descent with modification.

The Bible has lots of genealogies in it. For the most part, these are neither very edifying nor very entertaining, so what is their purpose? Could it be to indicate that genealogies are worth looking for? And what is evolution but the study of genealogy by the study of some other name?

UCMP (good intro)
Tree of Life (more technical)

Blui · 09-01-2005, 02:58 AM

(im assuming your serious).

So your saying that the bible actually teaches evolution? that christians have largely been unaware of this for thousands of years? that those christians (and the Church now) against evolution, are somehow blind?

rofl.

anyway ill examine your verses.

1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Now read it carefully, it does not mention that the seeds had different characteristics, it especially does not mention that the good seeds had an advantageous characteristic compared to all the seeds that failed.

it also does not mention that the one that survived, would pass on its characteristics into the future generations.

Im sorry but your stretching this quote far out of its scope, its reminiscent of conversations ive had with some Muslims saying their Quran talked about darkness, which indicated knowledge of BLACK HOLES.

DaMan121 · 09-01-2005, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckshot23

I was going to ask you if you were serious but since you thought this post was good enough for a seperate thread I assume you are not joking. You know this was a parable right? You know he isn't talking about seeds right?

I'm sorry but this is a stretch to the Hal Lindsey level.

The whole bible reads like a parable.

moosemaster1341 · 09-01-2005, 03:25 AM

Alrighty, I'm with pretty much everyone else on this in that this is a far stretch. Even if you are correct in most of what you say (which I believe to be false, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), then even so, Jesus only taught a small part of natural selection, not evolution as a whole which is far more complicated than you seem to make it. This would be parallel to saying that well, Jesus healed a man and turned water into wine, therefore he was a medical doctor and practiced various forms of witch-craft such as transmogrification. One small part of something is not the same as the whole.

t.w. · 09-01-2005, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steamer

Jesus Taught Evolution.

Matthew 13
1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

If you notice, many seeds tried to grow in places where they weren't well adapted. They failed to survive when they landed near the better adapted thorns. They failed to survive on the shallow ground where they had not much earth, but other plants have adapted to that kind of environment. Some seeds were devoured by birds and there were no doubt some seeds scattered by being dropped by the birds. Those that fell upon ground to which the seeds were well adapted brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Can you see that the ones that landed where they were best adapted produced the most fruit? The best plants also brought forth the most fruit.

If you imagine that soil can vary and plants can often grow on ground that is not perfectly suitable to them, those seeds with variations helpful to grow on insufficient ground will produce among the hundredfold and not the thirty fold or at least the thirtyfold and not the zerofold. If you thought evolution was something more than this...You were wrong.

Now then, would someone care to argue with me and Jesus? Want to tell me why god's word (when it happens to be right) ought not be taught in the classroom?

:thumbs: :rolling: :notworthy

lpetrich · 09-01-2005, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blui

So your saying that the bible actually teaches evolution? that christians have largely been unaware of this for thousands of years? that those christians (and the Church now) against evolution, are somehow blind?

Why get overheated about this issue?

That's no different from how many Protestant sects have claimed to be exactly following the Bible, even though

(1) They are a few centuries old -- at best.
(2) Their teachings are often full of heresies by the standards of most centuries of Xianity.

Consider the Rapture, the belief that True Xians will be instantaneously taken up into Heaven before the Book of Revelation's end-of-the-world disasters begin. That one originated in the 19th century, and is very popular among Xian Fundies, yet it was never believed in the past, and it requires some imaginative Bible interpretation to get it out of the Bible.

And also:
Salvation by faith alone, instead of by faith and works
Rejection of the Divine Right of Kings
Rejection of slavery
Support of democracy
Support of feminism, including the female pastors of many Protestant sects

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08-31-2005, 09:45 PM	#11
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	This reminds me of a Biblical argument I once thought of for evolution in general; descent with modification. The Bible has lots of genealogies in it. For the most part, these are neither very edifying nor very entertaining, so what is their purpose? Could it be to indicate that genealogies are worth looking for? And what is evolution but the study of genealogy by the study of some other name? UCMP (good intro) Tree of Life (more technical)

09-01-2005, 02:58 AM	#12
Blui Banned Join Date: May 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 3,381	(im assuming your serious). So your saying that the bible actually teaches evolution? that christians have largely been unaware of this for thousands of years? that those christians (and the Church now) against evolution, are somehow blind? rofl. anyway ill examine your verses. 1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. 2And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. 3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Now read it carefully, it does not mention that the seeds had different characteristics, it especially does not mention that the good seeds had an advantageous characteristic compared to all the seeds that failed. it also does not mention that the one that survived, would pass on its characteristics into the future generations. Im sorry but your stretching this quote far out of its scope, its reminiscent of conversations ive had with some Muslims saying their Quran talked about darkness, which indicated knowledge of BLACK HOLES.

09-01-2005, 03:25 AM	#14
moosemaster1341 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida, the United States of America. Posts: 28	Alrighty, I'm with pretty much everyone else on this in that this is a far stretch. Even if you are correct in most of what you say (which I believe to be false, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), then even so, Jesus only taught a small part of natural selection, not evolution as a whole which is far more complicated than you seem to make it. This would be parallel to saying that well, Jesus healed a man and turned water into wine, therefore he was a medical doctor and practiced various forms of witch-craft such as transmogrification. One small part of something is not the same as the whole.

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