Solo

Not to worry, I am being pig-headed myself, sometimes.

But Ben, you yourself supplied an exquisite example of the Augustan virginal impregnation. And what about the Messianic Eclogue of Virgil ? And again that Stobaeus wrote his Anthology in the 5th. century does not immediately postdate the tradition - would you make this sort of a leap to judgment if some antique Christian relic appeared in a text dated several centuries later ?

Ben, please be reasonable, it's like asking which particular fox Aesop had in mind for his fable. How can anyone tell ? Are the 'magoi' of Matthew really Mithraic priests paying homage ? Does Luke's "stable" relate to Dionysius' boukolion, and if you want to tell me it was not a stable but a "cave", was it paralleled after Mithra's birthplace ? J.G Frazer recounts in Golden Bough that the start annual festivals of Adonis in Antioch (of all places) was triggered by the appearance of Venus, the Star of the East. Is
this just another coincidence ?

Well, actually, Luke's seems to be pretty cryptic but no doubt who did the impregnating. At least it was consensual. In Matthew, Joseph receives the annunciation with an explanation from Isaiah. That's it. Not a word of it to Mary. And Joseph did not know Mary before she conceived.

For subtlety though both beat the Protevangelium where Salome nearly lost her hand certifying Mary's post-partum hymen.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I think the "virgin birth" had a narrower function in the Jesus mysteries. It is a motive which relates to the resurrectional "appearance of the Lord" and the "newness of life" that one feels afterward (like a babe in Christ), or physiologically, the photic experience of a partial TL seizure followed by the complex, prolonged, sensations of "jamais vu" (partial amnesia) and pronounced infantile regressions that a subject (or an adept in whom this experience is induced ritually) undergoes in the process. I was pointing to the Nicodemus story in John, as a proof of sorts that the virgin birth was a concept relating to spiritual birth. One of the particularities of John vis-a-vis the synoptics is that almost completely lacks the nocturnal motives of the three. You did notice, did you not that nearly all the miraculous happenings (including the Sanhedrin trial) in the synoptics happen at night, or early morning setting, or where the disciples are sleepy ? In John only Nicodemus carries a substantial "mystery" meaning to the holy night.

So the Johanine church had a "virgin birth" conceptual parallel, for a while, which, I imagine, in time gave way completely to the Nativity allegory.

Jiri

Ben C Smith

Yes, and I have already stated quite clearly that I think the birth narratives of Jesus are answering, in one way or another, to that kind of claim for Augustus.

Absolutely true.

(Why Christian here? I try to treat all texts equally until they prove themselves unequal.)

But of course not. I would try to trace the tradition as far back as I could.

There are plenty of traditions, Christian or otherwise, that I omit from my reconstruction of century I Christianity precisely because I cannot trace the tradition back far enough. John Mark founding the church in Alexandria, for instance.

Now, are you prepared to trace your tradition back as far as you can?

Asking for the primary evidence is always reasonable.

If asking about pagan influences on the birth narratives is like asking which fox Aesop had in mind, then the entire question is moot.

I have no idea. Please tell me. Show me the primary texts you have in mind so that I might make an informed judgment.

Good questions. Show me the texts as I have done for the Augustan birth account and the Priene inscription, and then perhaps we can come to some sort of answer.

A preliminary question would be: Is this even accurate? Just show me the primary text(s), and perhaps we can answer both questions.

No, I did not notice that. Nor do I think it is true. I have a list of Marcan miracles with their Matthean and Lucan parallels on my site. Perhaps you could run through them and explain why you think nearly all of them happened at night or early in the morning.

Ben.

Solo

Thanks again Ben for that Suetonius quote. I greatly value it for the Octavius dream of the sun rising from Atia's womb (which btw the Protevangelium asserts happened for real when baby Jesus appeared out of Mary's womb). Luke relocates the shining "glory of the Lord" to the shepherds in the field. Matthew has Venus leading the wise men. If you happen on another virgin birth taking place at night (or in a dark enclosure) with some prominent motif of luminosity, please, send it along.

Jiri

Solo

Let us leave aside healings and exorcisms as a separate category of transference. (The Gerasene demoniac is a special category because it does involve a nature miracle as well). For the nature miracles, and transformations of Jesus, the night motives are these:

Mark 4:35 (calming the storm): on that day when evening had come, he said to them, 'let us go to the other side'

Mark 5:1-2 (Gerasene demoniac) takes place immediately after: they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gerasenes, and when he had come out of the boat....

Mark 6:35 (feeding the multitudes): This is a lonely place and the hour is now late.

Mark 6:48 (walking on the sea): and about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea

Mark 16:2 (empty tomb): and very early on the first day of the week they went to the tomb.... (cf Jn 20:1)

Mt 2:2 (nativity): 'for we have seen his star in the Eest, and have come to worship him.

Lk 2:8-9 (nativity): '....shepherds out in the field keeping watch over their flock by night. And an angel of the Lord appeared to them and the glory of the Lord shone around them....

Luke 9:32 (transfiguration): Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep and when they wakened they saw his glory....

Mt 21:18 (the fig tree curse): in the morning, as he was returning to the city...

Jiri

jgibson000

After doing a little more digging around, I see that the epigram by Domitius Marsus (Epigr. Bob. 39f. [Munari]) - ante omnes alias felix tamen hoc ego dicor / sive hominem femina peperi sive deum -- also deals with "this aspect of the Augustus cult". Cf. G. Binder, [I]Aeneas und Augustus. Interpretationen zum 8. Buch der Aeneis[/I (Meisenheim am Glan [Beiträge zur klassischen Philologie 38] 1971), 252-253.

And since the epigram dates from from 43/42 BCE ...

Jeffrey Gibson

Ben C Smith

No problem.

I shall. And, if you ever get the itch to support your other parallels with primary texts, please do.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

I see. If we slice the evidence just so, and ignore a couple of anomalies, it will say what we want it to say.

This is a simple misunderstanding on your part. The hour was late with respect to eating, not sleeping. Lunch was going to be late. Mark 6.47 makes clear that evening had not yet arrived even after the crowds ate. The feeding was a daytime miracle.

The miracle had already happened. Stumbling upon an empty tomb is not a miracle in itself.

The miracle had already happened. But how early does this have to be anyway? If your criteria extend to any part of the morning, any part of the evening, and any part of the night, all that is left is the afternoon.

Ben.

gstafleu

Indeed, quite interesting. I agree that both Mat and Luke are beating around the bush, perhaps so as not to set it on fire. Still, if it takes two to tango, then the "ek" would indicate the holy spirit as Maria's partner. The feminine form into which Mat puts this may again be linked to the deity's transcendence, no crude insertion of male parts e.g. As you say:
It would no doubt not do to try and imagine some sort of deity-Maria sex-scene here (while that often is correct in Zeus' many conquests).
Careful, yes, but the "dio" makes, I think, the intended meaning unmistakable.

Gerard Stafleu

jgibson000

What "dio"??

JG

gstafleu

I always think of the healings and exorcisms as a separate category of miracles. I would even go so far as to consider them historically possible, given that Televangelists can still perform them today.

Gerard Stafleu