ApostateAbe

Sorry, you started out denying the existence of an atheist movement, so I thought that was what you were inquiring about. There are no scientific polls about mythicism. For that, you just have to pay attention to mythicists, which I have done. You may like to review this thread again: http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=283440

ApostateAbe

The poll I showed you does isolate the identity of "atheist," by the way. The identity increased by 50% since 2007.

steve_bnk

I denied nothing,I asked about your link between growing atheism and MJ, which you do not have.


Again, the Pew poll shows atheism to be relatively flat, the growth is in those who no longer adhere to organized religion but remin religious to some degree.


FRDB posts as a source? heehee.

ApostateAbe

I take it you think there isn't a way to tell whether mythicism and atheism have anything to do with each other at this point? Toto thinks the same thing, and I find it an interesting way to think, like maybe you don't trust the pattern that is clearly visible to everyone else if you don't have a scientific poll. Then again, not even a scientific poll is enough to prove the existence of an atheist movement.

steve_bnk

I imagine there are Christians who may not belive in an HJ, and who may even say it is irrellevnt. Buddhists have the sme issue, there are no contemporay accounts of an historocal Buddha.

MJ vs HJ are historical quetiions as are questins of other areas, The fact that it is an issue with some atheists does not make it an atheist issue. Again, atheism is not an ideology.

From past threads I suspect for some atheists acknowlegement of a possible HJ is tantamout to giving credence to Christianity.

Thee is no objective proof either way. A letter from a Roman to a freind talking about seeing the HJ somewhere.

IMO I find it hard for Christianity to have arisen without there being an HJ somewhere on which the tales grew, or the HJ of the NT being a composite of a movement. If not THE HJ, there were Jews claiming to be the messiah and intense Jewish nationalissm. An itinerant wandering rabbai at odds with rhe Jewish relgious power elete would not be surprisng. The temple was a corrupt institution in cahoots with the Romans.

For a rough context you aonly have to look at the Islamic world today and the many imams all making political/theologocal proclamtions and being at risk within their own states for doing so. By analogy and comparison to times we do know I infer a likely HJ of some sort. But that is just an opinion.

On the other hand, with the Greek influences in the tales, one can make a case for an MJ as well. For reasons unkown a movement was spun out of the 1st century unrest. JC may well have been a composite charactcer. JC meaning perhaps the spirit of god as hs been discussed in other threas. What Jesus Christ in the original language is open to interpretation, and not neccesarily a live person.

To say an MJ is categorically impossible is not supportable.

Toto

I have given you evidence and rational arguments for why mythicism is not related to atheism or hostility to Christianity. You ran your own (unscientific) poll, and there was no particular connection.

The question is why this is so "clearly visible" to you when it does not exist? I think you need a little background reading in how the brain can fool itself by seeing patterns where there is just random noise. (Hint - Pareidolia)

aa5874

It is the complete opposite with me. I find it extremely difficult for the Jesus cult to have started from a publicly known lie.

If Jesus was actually known by real people then the Pauline writings are a pack of Lies.

The claim by Paul that he and over 500 SAW the resurrected Jesus must be false and people who knew Jesus would have known Paul was lying if Jesus did actually live.

It is far more likely that the Jesus stories including the Pauline writings were composed in the 2nd century or later.

Sheshbazzar

I am strongly in the mythicist camp, and am well known to be very blunt in expressing my views about Jebus in this forum.
But I am NOT an 'atheist'. I simply do not accept the horse-shit of the NT, nor any unevidenced claims based upon this horse-shit religious fable that claim that there had to be a 'historical' or living person of any type that caused this religious horse-shit to be written.
Just like I don't believe there was any 'historical' Yahweh, or any 'historical' Adam and Eve, or any 'historical' Moses. Their stories and their dialog are ALL invented religious fiction.

The claimed 'events' never happened. The conversations that are reported to have taken place between 'Yahweh' and men are nothing more than fabrications composed by religious writers, that in reality never actually took place.
And Jebus is not one whit more of 'historical' person than Satan whom he conversed with on the pinnacle of the Temple.

As a Mono-Yahwhistic Hebrew my arguments are not related to atheism.
I don't believe in atheism. I don't even accept the words 'theos',- 'atheist' or 'atheism'.
They have no place in my faith, being those terms that were cobbed from pagan Greek philosophy and stuffed down our throats at the point of christianities swords
The very words 'atheist' and 'atheism' are to me among all that which is cherem 'accursed' and 'devoted to permanent destruction', right along with such popular words as 'christ', 'christian', 'catholic', 'protestant', and hundreds of other such 'christian' religious terms derived from ancient demon worship.
'All of the gods of the nations are demons', and their doctrines and words, the doctrines and words of demons. (ancient evil religious forces and 'movements'_ by the knowledge of the record of their evil works you may know them)

I expect in due time for this false religion named 'christianity' to be wiped off the the face of the earth, along with all that practice it.
(and all other 'religions' along with it. There will be no 'religion', nor word 'religion', nor word for 'religion' in the Olam ha'ba.)
And what mankind presently does not understand nor realise about the Name, YAH -Yahweh, is to at the last be replaced with a common and unified knowledge and unified understanding by all.
יהוה 'Yahweh' is ONE, The NAME יהוה 'Yahweh' is One NAME, The NAME יהוה 'Yahweh' unites his own, all united in the NAME יהוה 'Yahweh' will be united; ONE in יהוה.
(the anthropomorphisim 'his' is not literal, the name יהוה 'Yahweh' is a NAME, and a concept, not a man nor a person, but a unifying NAME to all that hold fast The Name יהוה Yahweh' to the end.)
These shall know and shall recieve the 'help', the -assistance- which is IN the NAME 'YAH', or expanded, 'YAH'hoshua', and NONE other (name).

To face it, the person convicted of the validity ancient name 'YAH' and the name 'YAHSHUA' (the 'assistance of 'YAH'_ that is to say of the name 'YAH') And will accept no substitues will never become a victim of any religion or philosophy that operates in another name.
That one does not need to hold any belief in the existence of any invisable entity or deity, only be faithful to upholding a certain particular Name.

And this is what pissses the religionists off. The promises to those that believe this NAME are totally unconditional.
'For Whosoever shall call in the NAME יהוה shall be delivered' (Jo 2:32)
But even the best English translation of this is weak, with the word translated as 'call' being 'quera', which can also be read as 'read aloud' or 'proclaim' or 'give name to'.
And 'delivered' here is the Hebrew word 'malat' which in the sense of the original context of Joel 2:32 would be to 'escape' trouble or destruction.
Thus one has nothing to lose one way or another, by believing or not believing in the literal existence of a Deity, when accepting and reading or speaking this Name. The pledge reamains unconditionally the same to 'Whomsoever' will.

A lot more I could write, but it is much better if you figure the many attendant implications out for yourself.



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No Robots

Sheshbazzar has fallen for heathen propaganda that makes Christ and the New Testament into something alien to Judaism, rather than its distilled essence.

Sheshbazzar

Horse shit. christianity is not any 'distilled essence' of Judaism. It is a stinking pile of thinly disguised pagan Platonic philosophy and whitewashed pagan religious ideas and practices that has been dumped by these half baked pagan/christian assholes upon the history and the religion of my people for the last two thousand years.
IT WILL BE EXPOSED. AND IT IS GOING TO STOP.

Man will become educated, and then will become ashamed that they had ever even thought of anything as dishonest, stupid, and dispicable as 'christianity', and will totally disassociate themselves from any connection with that vile, shameful, and bloody imposition upon humanity.

ששבצר העברי