Mughal

Dear ToMek,

I think different people need different strategy for approach because everybody is not the same. For example, some people have values and ethics and are true to them others are not, hence we have a categories called hypocrites and opportunists.

For example, even amongst religious people you will find many who only play lip service to what they claim to believe. Likewise humans are humans so you can find people looking for opportunities to make a kill regardless of its being right or wrong. Again, you will see that some of the nonmuslims including scientists have written books in favour of islam. All this because muslims will buy these books and so money will end up in their pockets. I have nothing against people making money but selling lies and destroying peoples' hopes thereby their lives is what I am concerned with. When mullahs stand up in gatherings in backward islamic countries and preach islam to little or none educated people and claim the quran is full of scientific facts and they back their claims up by refering to books such people have written, saying the american and european scientists say so in their books, you can imagine the impact that has. This is also having affect on nonmuslims even in america and europe.

So we cannot take people just on their face value, rather we need to see how their presence in sense of their beliefs and practices or words and actions affects others. Those who help effect a better change deserve our appreciation and those who effect our world in bad way do not.

So PhD or not, it is the personality of a person that is important. So people who think better more knowledge only adds to their worth.

So at the end of the day, we must convince each other that cooperation between individuals is absolutely vital for our survival and betterment. Opportunists and hypocrites do not share this idea and so they need to be conviced that this is absolutely necesary if we take ourselves and our future generations seriously. Once people are true to themselves in front of the rest, we would have achieved our objective ie the better world.

The other group of scholars is that which does not bother applying what they learned during their professional qualifications to real life in general to learn more about the rest of the things and how they should participate in the issues relating wider world to know their own place therein. Most of these people were indoctrinated in their childhood with religious dogmas. So it is very difficult to help such people change their minds in later life when they are completely free unlike when they were children and were forced indoctrination through help of their parents.

So my friend, it is not easy to help everyone see things in a better light.

My regards and best wishes.

Jobar

ToMeK, I won't claim to have deconverted anyone all by myself, but I can claim credit for being part of a group effort which has caused a number of believers to change their minds. Rainbow walking, Tricia, clearscreen, Bree (not the barefoot one!), and several others- we've a thread with a list here, somewhere- have all stated that they came to understand the falsity of their former beliefs due to Internet Infidels. And we've caused many more people to examine and change their beliefs in such things as a literal Hell, or a six-day Creation, or a worldwide flood. (Why, even Magus has moderated some of his more extreme views since he first came here!)

IRL, I have a sister who may one day go from being a very liberal theist to being an atheist, because of talks with me. But since she's never been one to attend church or make a production about her beliefs I don't actually try to deconvert her- just talk to her when she feels like discussing the subject. And I know for a fact that I have severely disturbed the comfortable worldview of a number of Christians who never knew a real live atheist before they met me, though none have definitely deconverted, to my knowledge.

Mughal saysI've always thought that the highest human virtues are honesty and honor- if we are honest with ourselves, and can get others to be honest with themselves, I think we'd be about as close as we humans can get to Paradise.

ToMeK

That pretty much exactly what I think

I guess I am a little desensitized to this but its really incredible that I have yet to meet anyone who knows of a theist who has deconverted through dialogue. The grip it has on people's minds is truly amazing. Anyway, I have had one person say that it was because of people like me that he managed to convert though I'm sure it wasn't during or even near to the time he discussed thigns with such people.

It about planting seeds of doubt I think. However, when a person tried to justify hell it is a clear sign taht they are beyond help. When you add all the other things inquisitive and seom others have said it becomes really hopeless. Resistance to cognitive dissonance is pretty much complete there...

Tomek

cloggy

This FAQ covers prety much everything I can come up with.

http://home.wi.rr.com/knightofbaawa/avscfaq.html