Freethought & Rationalism Archive

French Prometheus · 08-16-2004, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

then the USA could have bombed Nazi Germany without repercussions because Hitler was staunch anti-Christian.

Hitler anti-Christian? That's not what he wrote in Mein Kampf or in his private letters nor what he said in his public speeches. He was a Catholic and never was excommunicated. BTW, Mein Kampf never appeared in the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.
"Gott mitt uns" (God is with us) was written on German soldiers' belt buckles. Which God do you think it was referring to? Thor?

IrishGuy · 08-16-2004, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

Hitler anti-Christian? That's not what he wrote in Mein Kampf or in his private letters nor what he said in his public speeches. He was a Catholic and never was excommunicated. BTW, Mein Kampf never appeared in the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.
"Gott mitt uns" (God is with us) was written on German soldiers' belt buckles. Which God do you think it was referring to? Thor?

Hitler was no Christian. NO doubt about it.

Here's an article about this from answers.org:

Was Hitler a Christian?
By John Baskette - but the information came from Marty Helgesen in a soc.religion.christian post.
The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

Here's the link: http://answers.org/Apologetics/Hitquote.html

Mageth · 08-16-2004, 01:54 PM

IrishGuy:

You are close to complying with the copyright requirements of the site you copied the above from, but not quite:

http://answers.org/copyrit.html

You also need to include the following in your post:

Answers In Action
P.O. Box 2067
Costa Mesa, California 92628
(949) 646 9042

IrishGuy · 08-16-2004, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mageth

IrishGuy:

You are close to complying with the copyright requirements of the site you copied the above from, but not quite:

http://answers.org/copyrit.html

You also need to include the following in your post:

Answers In Action
P.O. Box 2067
Costa Mesa, California 92628
(949) 646 9042

Oh... Thanks.

Toto · 08-16-2004, 05:39 PM

The "Table Talk" is an unreliable source, and most of the quotes that are attributed to it are fabrications. Please see the article here by Richard Carrier.

Quote:

All of these quotations (and others like them that you will probably see bandied about on the web) come from a single source: Hitler's Table Talk. This is purportedly a notebook based on the shorthand of two secretaries to Hitler, Heinrich Heim and Henry Picker, instructed by Hitler's right-hand-man Martin Bormann to record for posterity whatever Hitler said in his bunker in Berlin, usually at tea. They recorded official orders as well as things he said off the cuff, and logged entries by date and time of day. Bormann intended to edit the notes and publish them as a definitive party manifesto for the victorious Reich.

. . .

Such is the state of the source for Hitler's remarks. "I shall never come to terms with the Christian lie," Hitler supposedly said on 27 February 1942. "Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity." From this you would certainly conclude that Hitler believed all Christianity was a lie, a disease he wished gone. But the German does not say this! And there lies the scandal. The text of both Jochmann and (the corrected) Picker agree in every detail, yet say something completely different from the English everyone quotes. . . .

Let's take the "disease" remark first. Here is what Picker/Jochmann says (the preceding three sentences must be included now for context, though all but the first of these sentences are completely missing from Trevor-Roper and Genoud):

I have never found pleasure in maltreating others, even if I know it isn't possible to maintain oneself in the world without force. Life is granted only to those who fight the hardest. It is the law of life: Defend yourself!
The time in which we live has the appearance of the collapse of this idea. It can still take 100 or 200 years. I am sorry that, like Moses, I can only see the Promised Land from a distance.

At once you can see the English endorsed by Trevor-Roper and used by Glover (and everyone else: this is the only English translation in print) is a lie. There is no "disease of Christianity." Rather, in place of that phrase is a reference to what Hitler says in the preceding sentences, which Trevor-Roper's English doesn't even include: the idea of expediency, survival of the fittest, the "necessary evil" of using force to implement your will. That is what Hitler wishes will end (and he certainly believed it would, when the Third Reich finally became the utopian state of every Nazi's dreams).

. . .

There are many other suspect quotations. I checked over a dozen, in four separate entries. All of them ended with similar results. For example, one oft-repeated quote comes from 13 December 1941: "But Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery" (Stevens and Cameron's English, again matching Genoud's French verbatim). But the original German says, "Christianity teaches 'transubstantiation,' which is the maddest thing ever concocted by a human mind in its delusions, a mockery of all that is godly." The difference in meaning here is radical, and again shows how Genoud (hence the Trevor-Roper translation) has distorted Hitler's criticism of one form of Christianity (which implies he believed there was a true Christianity) into a thoroughly anti-Christian sentiment.

French Prometheus · 08-17-2004, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishGuy

Hitler was no Christian. NO doubt about it.
Here's an article about this from answers.org:

Mein Kampf, public speeches and personal letters (some of which were seized by the allies and still exist today) are certainly more reliable than "table talks".

Quotes answering quotes are no argument but everyone will judge for themselves...

Hitler Was Not An Atheist by John Patrick Michael Murphy

Quote:

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.
Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him.

Quote:

Acclaimed Hitler biographer John Toland explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite the detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jews was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god. ..."

And this one from another source (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942) is probably the most devastating :

Quote:

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.�? –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

Hitler was baptized and raised in the Catholic faith, he was a communicant and altar boy and was never excommunicated.

French Prometheus · 08-18-2004, 04:47 AM

Magus55 · 08-18-2004, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

Hitler anti-Christian? That's not what he wrote in Mein Kampf or in his private letters nor what he said in his public speeches. He was a Catholic and never was excommunicated. BTW, Mein Kampf never appeared in the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.
"Gott mitt uns" (God is with us) was written on German soldiers' belt buckles. Which God do you think it was referring to? Thor?

Yes Hitler was anti-Christian. Read some of his other books where he calls christianity a plague, an abomination, the worst invention in history etc. And maybe the "god" the belt buckles were referring to was Hitler?

He certaintly had a big enough ego.

Dean Anderson · 08-18-2004, 06:23 AM

Thread split from here.

Evoken · 08-18-2004, 06:48 AM

A friend of mine told me he was a deist, I am not sure of this so I will try to look more into it.

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08-16-2004, 01:54 PM	#3
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	IrishGuy: You are close to complying with the copyright requirements of the site you copied the above from, but not quite: http://answers.org/copyrit.html You also need to include the following in your post: Answers In Action P.O. Box 2067 Costa Mesa, California 92628 (949) 646 9042

08-18-2004, 04:47 AM	#7
French Prometheus Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: France Posts: 5,839

08-18-2004, 06:23 AM	#9
Dean Anderson Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 6,947	Thread split from here.

08-18-2004, 06:48 AM	#10
Evoken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: ............. Posts: 2,914	A friend of mine told me he was a deist, I am not sure of this so I will try to look more into it.

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