Clouseau

Abraham believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead, according to promise. That takes faith. That is why Abraham was regarded as righteous.

Ray Moscow

To kill one's child, on the say-so of a voice in one's head, is generally -- and rightly -- considered criminally insane. It's a terrible example for anybody.

It's called midrash, and it's not that hard to do. Just imagine: how could I make up a story, using these themes in another setting.

Were the hero stories of old a "prophecy" fulfilled by the original Star Wars trilogy?

Ray Moscow

That's nonsense. Lots of preacher types have gotten themselves killed by getting into politics.

You can't hang that rap or me or the other readers, even if you (wrongly) take it upon yourself.

Clouseau

It's regarded as criminal, yes. Killing one's offspring for 'sensible' economic reasons has been very common in certain periods in history. And of course, no civil law can determine that 'a voice in one's head' is not God's voice, especially if one swears evidence on the Bible!

Roger Pearse

Most of us find no lack of excuses to ignore what we do not wish to believe.

It is not enough, however, to find reasons to reject things. When rejecting conformity to the atmosphere in which we are brought up, too many people adopt without question conformity to the atmosphere of the new locale in which they find themselves. It would be wise, surely, to state explicitly what the latter actually is, and determine what if anything can be said for it. Otherwise one merely passes from one ignorant conformity to another, more socially powerful one, without the brain ever becoming involved.

Failure to do this is the reason why the moral judgements of atheists almost invariably seem to reflect the period values of the time in which they happen to live, if one allows for a bit self-indulgence as well.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

gstafleu

Am I right in thinking that that is the crux of what you are worried about: that the Abraham/Isaac story seems a forecast of the Jesus story?

Human sacrifices were at one time quite common, as you can tell by the fact that when Abraham is told to sacrifice his son he just obediently toddles off to do so. So what we have here is two stories that share a common theme, a theme that was certainly not unusual. That does not mean the earlier story predicts the later one. For example, a story about a king conquering some enemy in 1000 BC is not a "forecast" of another story of another king conquering some other enemy around the year 1: there always was a lot of conquering going on.

Gerard Stafleu

Minimalist

Now you've done it, Ray. Some defense lawyer is going to use that argument.... probably in Texas where that sort of thing seems to happen a lot ... and get the dumb bitch off. You just know that in Texas there has to be one of those "Praise Jesus" types on every jury!

Clouseau

How is it that he did not actually sacrifice his son, then? It is the only suggestion of human sacrifice recorded in Genesis. All actual sacrifices made to the Israelite God were of animals or plants.

'Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."' Gen 22:2 NIV

'"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son."' Gen 22:7-8 NIV

'When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.' Gen 22:9-10 NIV


'Then Moses summoned all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb. Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. Not one of you shall go out the door of his house until morning. When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.' Ex 12:21-23 NIV

'We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.'
Isa 53:6-7 NIV

'The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"' John 1:29-30 NIV

'"God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."' John 3:16-17 NIV

'"The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead — whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree."' Acts 5:30-31 NIV

'Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."' Gal 3:13 NIV

'By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.' Heb 11:17-19 NIV

Lugubert

Is that a promise in the KJV? I don't find any such thing in my Swedish Bibles.

Clouseau

Even in that poor effort.

I'm sure you do.

'Then the word of the Lord came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir." He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars — if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.' Gen 15:4-6 NIV