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09-05-2011, 12:49 PM | #21 | |||
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09-05-2011, 08:32 PM | #22 | ||||||||
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Well, I read the B&I article “A New Portrait of Marcion” (August 2011), as you suggested. Wow! I got the impression that Moll had nothing positive to say about poor Marcion! Quote:
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Mark DelCogliano reviewed Moll's book The Arch-Heretic Marcion on RBL: Quote:
I'm not buying Moll's book as an act of Trotz! Ahh, bedtime ... DCH |
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09-05-2011, 10:51 PM | #23 |
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DCH, same impression here. In fact, it sounds like the author simply regurgitated the Catholic encyclopedia.
I think the descriptions, both you and Stephan provide above, are much closer to the fact of the matter. In the end, it was about being free of the law. The Catholics, however, needed sin, so they adjusted the original message in order to retain it. |
09-06-2011, 02:52 AM | #24 | ||
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Mark DelCogliano has summed it up well: Quote:
A good god and a just god - as a reflection of Marcion's dualism, just does not cut it. There is inherently no dualism there at all; a just god can be good and a good god can be just. Marcion, in his reworking of Galatians, has referenced Abraham and his two sons; the son of the bond woman and the son of the free woman. The Genesis story relates the negative dualism between the two women - the free woman, Sarah, wanting the son of the bond woman sent away so that he would never have an inheritance with her son. To side-skip this fundamental negative allegory of the Hagar and Sarah story is to deny Marcion a fundamental aspect of his theology. A negative dualism is the inherent element of his good god and an evil god theory. 'Paul', has reversed the 'persecution' element of the Genesis story (it’s now the bond woman getting rid of the free woman's son) But if the bond woman is now to send away the son of the free woman - and that son of the free woman is now in heavenly Jerusalem, then 'Paul's primary application of the Hagar and Sarah storyline is to an intellectual/heavenly context. On a secondary application, ‘Paul’ is using Hagar as representing the covenant of Mount Sinai and present Jerusalem. But with the negative dualism now removed and restricted to the new Jerusalem above, the Hagar symbolism is reflecting the Mount Sinai covenant in a positive light. Not as slavery and bondage in some dictatorial theocracy – but Law as a necessary component in human functioning. Sure, this ‘Law’ means we are all subject to it’s final dictate of death - but in the meantime...............we need it in order to understand our nature and the nature of the world in which we live. (‘Paul’ the constant dualist - one time this way - another time that way....) For ‘Paul’, the negative dualism, of the Genesis Hagar and Sarah story, is better suited to a wholly heavenly/intellectual context than an earthly/fleshly one. Once that shift is made – both Hagar and Sarah viewed as negative figures - both figures have turns to ‘persecute’ the other figure - then Paul’s’ use of Hagar as representing the covenant at Mount Sinai is a secondary application, or view, of that covenant as representing ‘flesh’ but not evil flesh, not evil matter.. (the negativity, the ‘evil’, of the Genesis Hagar and Sarah story has been removed by ‘Paul’ to an intellectual/heavenly context). Marcion, by the look of things, has either read 'Paul' to be referencing only the Sarah part of the allegory to be applied to heavenly Jerusalem - or simply retained the whole Genesis story of Hagar and Sarah as being a negative allegory related to only an earthy/fleshly context. But 'Paul' has clarified his intention - the reversal of the 'persecuting' or sending away - does not makes sense if the Hagar and the Sarah allegory is split down the middle with one in the new heavenly Jerusalem and the other in the present Jerusalem. It does not make sense as a continuing negative dualism between people. Once the whole Hagar and Sarah allegory of negative dualism is applied to a context of intellectual, heavenly Jerusalem, then the OT god (Marcion’s 'evil' god) has been uplifted to a context wherein positive value can be attained - god produced a son. Something unthinkable, for Marcion, that his evil OT god could have been able to do. The problem seems to be that Marcion misunderstood this Pauline 'evil' god. Marcion seems to have looked upon this 'evil' god in a negative sense rather than a sense of great value, salvation value. That, methinks, is the big difference between 'Paul' and Marcion. Marcion failed to move the OT 'evil' god, the god of negative dualism, to the Pauline new Jerusalem - an intellectual context in which the 'evil' god could have supreme value. In other words; Marcion failed to make the Pauline switch or reversal as outlined in the Galatians passage. Yes, for 'Paul', the intellectual/heavenly 'evil' god of negative dualism, the Genesis Hagar and Sarah storyline, was primary - that god was able to produce a son. Yes, for Marcion, the 'evil' god, of his ‘good god evil god’ dualism, was primary - that god was responsible for all the evil in the physical world; bondage and slavery and evil matter; and 'persecutes' the son of the free woman. It's the two contexts that are in conflict - 'Paul' upgraded the OT god concept to a dualistic ‘evil’ god in the heavenly places, a god who could produce a son. Marcion downgraded the OT god concept to a purely evil god who could only bring slavery - and who could not produce a son - and thereby limited his theology and guaranteed it a place in the dustbin of history. (However, to give him some credit - Marcion tried to find an answer to the evil in the world - so I would not be too quick to misjudge his motives with his evil god theology..... ) As of now - that’s about how I’m seeing things.... |
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09-06-2011, 07:36 AM | #25 |
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I ask once again why it is that you, mary helena, continue to trumpet a book on a subject that you have no expertise. My guess is that you've never even looked at Tertullian's book nor any of the other Patristic sources. Why do you then continue with this? As has been demonstrated by other members of the forum, Moll is clearly someone who accepts the western Patristic sources at face value. There are other sources which come to very different conclusions about Marcion. It is surprising to say the least that someone who openly rejects the historical existence of Jesus should embrace the idea that 'Marcion was the 'first heretic.' All of this demonstrates how little interest you have in seeking out the truth. Your only interest is to rearrange historical information to suit your own pet theory about Jesus.
I really wish you would stop arguing on behalf of an uncritical acceptance of western Patristric sources. Your inconsistency here is really laughable. On the one hand, you would reject Tertullian's belief that Jesus was a historical person but on the other hand, we should embrace his understanding that Marcion was a heretic from Pontus, a shipmaster who came to Rome bribed the Church there and then when he was excommunicated begged to rejoin the body. I would tell anyone I respected that they were being inconsistent. But it should be obvious what I think about you when I don't even bother in your case. |
09-06-2011, 08:07 AM | #26 | ||
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09-06-2011, 09:12 AM | #27 |
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It is grating to continue to hear the way mary helena deals with historical evidence. She obviously had no idea that two very different reports about Marcion exist in the Patristic literature. The difficulty is that Irenaeus, the earliest witness (ignoring Justin), can be argued to witness for both models (i.e. a strict dualist and something more closely related to Judaism). I wish she would just stop learning as she goes along here. It would be my recommendation that she stop wasting everyone's time and actually read the primary sources. She should start with Irenaeus move on to Clement, Tertullian, the Philosophumena, Adamantius, Origen, Eusebius, Epiphanius, Ephrem, Eznik etc. After a few months of reading this stuff she will realize how silly this whole exercise is.
Maybe she can come up with some reason why we all had to read this stuff before having an opinion and sharing that opinion with everyone else and she doesn't have to actually read the original material. I guess actually having a working knowledge of the evidence would limit the scope of ongoing creative writing efforts in the field of Christianity. She would certainly find that Marcion limits the degree to which one can use the arguments for a wholly spiritual Jesus to argue that Christianity was a 'fiction' or 'myth.' The Marcionites certainly believed that Jesus was wholly divine but nevertheless believed that the Passion was a historical event. I wish this nonsense put forward by her and mountainman would simply end at this forum. It all develops from their lack of familiarity with the earliest sources for Christianity. It is amazing how constraining the primary sources are for reconstructing a picture of the movement. No wonder she ignores them. The sources get in the way of her 'analysis.' |
09-06-2011, 09:18 AM | #28 | ||
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You are correct, the Christian god of love is still an issue even today, as such a notion is contradicted by the source for the traits of the god itself. I still am not sure where Moll is getting Marcion's actual words from. I am aware of a lot of the love letters from his fans, but nothing from the man himself. |
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09-06-2011, 09:19 AM | #29 | |
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09-06-2011, 09:21 AM | #30 | |
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