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Old 09-05-2011, 12:49 PM   #21
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Yes, even back then, the move away from the evil god being the OT god, towards this god becoming the just god, seems to have caused some confusion....
You know, maryhelena, I would venture so far as to say that, if one is looking for the impetus for Christian origins, this issue may have been a primary driver once someone came up with the concept of an omnibenevolent deity.

Perhaps a Platonist reading the LXX?
Here is a summary of Moll's concept of the teaching of Marcion:
In the third chapter Moll turns to the question of Marcion’s dualism, rejecting Harnack’s view that the arch-heretic distinguished between a just and a good God (47–76). It is argued that Marcion’s original doctrine distinguished between a good and an evil God, which was deformed by later Marcionites into a tripartite system of good God, just God, and evil God (or evil matter).

Marcion identified the evil God with the God of the Old Testament, seen as the imperfect and flawed Creator, the God of the Jews, the Lawgiver, and the Judge. The good God is revealed by Jesus Christ and preached by Paul.

Moll suggests that Marcion conceived of the good God as seeking to destroy the evil Creator God, characterizing Christ’s stance as Trotz (spiteful, almost childish defiance) against the Creator and his law.

Thus it is the evil God who is first in Marcion’s system and the good God who is second. “The second God could not exist without the first” (67). “The good God is a pure anti-God, who merely reacts to the malice of his counterpart” (76).

RBL review of The Arch heretic Marcion, by Mark DelCogliano, 8/6/11
I mention this, not just because it was brought up by maryhelena, but because it is out of character for the world view of that age, as found in contemporary Platonic and Valentinian literature.

It was all about 1st principles that have made the world we know possible.

Classically, Plato had postulated:
First Principals.
• The One (Monad): active, imposing “limit” (peras) on the formlessness (apieron) of the opposite principal. The Good. Father. First Principle.
• The Indefinite Dyad: a duality, being infinitely extensible and divisible, being simultaneously infinitely large and infinitely small.

Secondary Principals.
Ideas (from Greek) or Forms (from Latin). These are eternal, changeless, perfect. These represent order & reason. Ideas are universal abstract representations of the many types of things, and properties we feel and see around us, that can only be perceived by reason (Greek: λογική). Ideas serve as "a pattern intelligible and always the same."
• The first and most important Idea is The Good [not the same as the One, also called "The Good"]: it is the highest Form, which all other Forms seek to emulate.

The Receptacle, the "nurse of all becoming": has no properties, being "an invisible and formless being which receives all things and in some mysterious way partakes of the intelligible and is most incomprehensible," which is unformed matter existing in space, that which is always becoming and never is, chaos. It is indestructible and eternal, like the Ideas.

The Demiurge (Craftsman) fashioned the cosmos (Universe) perceptible by the senses, from the Receptacle, using the Ideas as patterns: The cosmos "was only an imitation of the pattern, generated and visible." It is the corporeal, the temporal and becoming, which is apprehended by opinion or sense perception. The cosmos is a copy of the eternal and unchanging [Ideas], and is a living creature.
World Soul: The soul of the universe, created when the Demiurge created the cosmos from The receptacle using the Ideas as templates. Described this process as the putting of a soul into the body of the universe, thereby putting intelligence (regularity and order) into it.
Individual Souls: Includes souls of Gods, Daimons, and man, each inhabiting their portion of the cosmos (Gods in heavens, Daimons in the Air, and Animals/Man on earth). Immortal, subject to reincarnation as higher/lower souls.
In Platonism of that era, the highest first principals were the One (Monad), which is the essence of things, and the Dyad, which allows things to come to be. These are ever existent, unknowable and exist in a different plane of existence.

Two other secondary principals that have always existed are the Receptacle, aka Hyle through Aristotelian influence, being preexistent unformed matter existing in space, and the Demiurge (a Craftsman) who fashioned the cosmos (the physical universe) we can see using the unformed matter of the Receptacle, on the basis of universal Ideas or thoughts in the mind of the One. There was, however, some hesitation about accepting Plato's Demiurge, and efforts were made to place creation in a different manner.

The Valentinians, on the other hand, took a different view:
It is generally asserted that what chiefly distinguishes the Gnostic attitude from main-line Platonism is a conviction that this world is not only imperfect (a view with which all sides would concur), but the creation of an evil entity, and that we [souls] are total aliens in it. Plainly a radically world-negating philosophy must arise from this basic position. Within the Gnostic thought-world, however, Valentinus represents a relatively non-dualistic position. For him, the creation of the world results, not from the eternal confrontation between two archetypal powers, as it does for a thinker like Mani, but rather from a Fall occurring within the framework of a previously perfect system. ...

As for the basic framework of the system, it is, if anything, reminiscent of Pythagorean metaphysics. We have initially a monadic and a dyadic figure, the latter being subordinated to the former ([although] in one variant of Valentinianism ... the original Aeon is alone in his glory, and produces Nous and Aletheia without the aid of Ennoia [page 386] (Hippolytus, Ref. VI 29, 5ff.)). The name Ennoia, denoting as it does unuttered thought, is reminiscent of such figures as Philo's Sophia (in her capacity as mother of the Logos), or the Isis of the preface to Plutarch's Isis and Osiris.

The monadic principle, the perfect, archetypal Aeon, is termed proarchê (fore-beginning), propatôr (fore-father) and bythos (abyss).

The female principle is called, besides Ennoia, also charis (grace) and sigê (silence). The [arch-typical] Aeon puts forth a seed into Ennoia, and she produces Intellect (nous) and, as his consort, Truth (alêtheia). Nous receives the titles of 'only-begotten', 'Father' and 'First Principle of all things'.

We may note here a deliberate piece of oneupmanship on the part of the Gnostics.

Their secondary, derived principle, Nous, is given the titles of the Platonic supreme god, 'Father' and 'first principle', while their own supreme principle is 'Forefather' and 'pre-first principle'.

This is a motif apparent also in Chaldaean theology, and, as we saw in the last chapter, something of it rubbed off onto Numenius. At any rate, Nous is the only product of the Forefather that is granted knowledge of him, and in virtue of that knowledge he produces a further pair of principles, Logos and Zoe ('life'). In Logos we have another philosophic concept, familiar to us in particular (in this book) from Philo, but not much is made of it in the Valentinian system, except as a source of further aeons. ...

Passing over for our present purpose the further elaborations which make up the Pleroma, we come to the lastborn of the Aeons, the female principle Sophia. About her Fall something has been said just previously. It is a most interesting concept, representing as it does the striving of the religio-philosophic mind to account, not only for the imperfection of the physical world, but for its creation at all in any form.

Plato himself was sufficiently dualistic to postulate a cause of imperfection, albeit a rather passive, negative one, external to God, on which God works as best he can. There is no question of imperfection or of a fall within the divine realm.

Only in the case of the individual soul is there question (in the myth of the Phaedrus) of some fall from a previous perfection. But the postulation of the Indefinite Dyad introduces a cause of disequilibrium at the highest level, and it is the workings of this principle that are used to explain not only all that is imperfect, but all multiplicity and even existence.

Speusippus, as we have seen, refused to characterize the Dyad as evil, which is a more logical attitude to take. For Valentinus, similarly, there is nothing evil about Ennoia. She is simply the condition for the generation of everything [page 387] after the Forefather. Evil only arises at a much lower level, with the most junior of the aeons [Sophia].

Sophia sins through her desire to know her origin, to comprehend the nature of the Forefather. She plunges recklessly into the abyss where he dwells, causing a disequilibrium in the Pleroma, and is only brought up short by the intervention of an entity previously not heard of, termed Horos ('boundary'—a variant, perhaps, of the Pythagorean peras, 'limit'). This entity seems to be an aspect of the Forefather generated by the imbalance within the Pleroma. It may be seen, in more philosophic terms, as the Logos in its regulating aspect, or, in Philo's system, the 'regal power' of God [which is Philo's sole principal].

Sophia is restored to her place, but the result of her disruption remains, objectified as a 'formless entity', and causes pain to the other aeons. They cause a further aeon, Christos, to be produced, in order to deal with this formlessness. Christos, like Horos, is a logos-figure. He separates off the formless entity, and expels it from the Pleroma. It becomes the 'lower' Sophia, or Achamoth, a projection of the higher Sophia outside the intelligible world. It corresponds to the irrational World Soul of Middle Platonic metaphysics, an irrational entity which yet yearns for what is above it, and grieves because of its separation from the higher world. Its emotions, grief, fear, bewilderment and ignorance, all become hypostatized, and give rise to the four elements of the material world, while a fifth quality of Achamoth, its 'turning back' (epistrophê) to what is above it, produces Soul.

Out of this soul-substance, Achamoth produces a son, the Demiurge, and it is at this stage that we find in Valentinianism an explicit parody of the Timaeus, and through it of Platonic metaphysics in general, as well as an attack on Jehovah as portrayed in the Old Testament.

The Valentinian Demiurge is not so much evil (as he is in certain other Gnostic traditions), as simply ignorant. He does not know the true nature of things; he cannot see the Forms, yet he thinks that he is the unique and supreme God. He organizes the material universe into seven heavens, over which, in the eighth sphere, he presides.

This notion that our world is in the power of an evil, or at best ignorant, being is one that is characteristically Gnostic, but of which we have seen dim suggestions both in Philo and in Plutarch's teacher Ammonius, and even perhaps in Xenocrates' connexion of the sublunar realm with 'Titanic' deities and a 'lower Zeus'. It is plainly one explanation of the world's imperfection with which men like to torment themselves, and is after all only a personified development of Plato's [page 388] notion of Necessity (Ananke) as irreducibly present in the material world.

The Demiurge tries to imitate the structure of the higher world in his creation of the material world, but fails systematically through ignorance. The parody of the Timaeus attains its sharpest manifestation, perhaps, in the description of the Demiurge's attempt to imitate Eternity (Aiôn) with the creation of Time (cf. Tim. 37Cff.): ...

[John Dillon, The Middle Platonists (1977), pgs 385-388]
Now it is clear to me that Dillon is right that Valentinianism was a modification of Platonic concepts.

Marcion, on the other hand, is not a Gnostic with a system resembling the Valentinian system, but instead adopted (from Cerdo?) a simplified Platonic system in which

The "Good" God is one principal,

Hyle (Unformed matter, corresponding to the Recepticle of Plato) is another,

and finally a Demiurge that created the cosmos from Hyle and ruled it as an autocrat, ignorantly thinking he was the supreme God, and punishing those who fell short of his strict justice, and who manifested himself as the God of the Hebrews.

It is due to the Demiurge's imprisonment of the souls of men in Hades upon death, that rouses the Good God from his repose in the highest immaterial heaven to send his son, Christ, to rectify the situation.

No Sophia throwing out unformed matter into a Pleroma to be expelled into space like an abortion in his system, but rather Hyle is preexistant. His concept of the Demiurge does have some affinity to the Valentinian Demiurge, as does his Good God with Plato's Monad.

However, the fact that the Good God generates a Son to effect the rectification of the predicament that the Demiurge imposed on human souls, is somewhat reminiscent of the Aeons of the Pleroma creating the aeon Christ to respond to challenge occasioned by fragments of the cosmic soul being entrapped in the physical world ruled by the Demiurge.

Head spinning yet? :constern01:

DCH
Wow - yes, head spinning - I'll read it better after a night's sleep.....
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:32 PM   #22
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Like I said, I do not think the word Evil is appropriate, as I do not think that the demiurge was viewed as evil, per se, but as Just, (the lawgiver...).
OK - but the quote from the book by Sebastian Moll - check out the quote above from page 52 - indicates that evil was a feature of the Demiurge in early Marcion theory.

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According to the first report Marcoin distinguished between a good and an evil God: “You say the Demiurge of the world is evil....you say the God who destroyed the works of the Demiurge is good:
I think that that is a paraphrase from one of Marcion's detractors. However, I am not convinced that the characterization of Marcion's theology is actually correct.
You might be interested in this Bible and Interpretation article by Sebastian Moll: A New Portrait of Marcion

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/mol358031.shtml
I was about to edit the post above but got lost in all the quote levels, so I leave it intact.

Well, I read the B&I article “A New Portrait of Marcion” (August 2011), as you suggested.

Wow! I got the impression that Moll had nothing positive to say about poor Marcion!

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As far as his personal development was concerned, Marcion’s soul appeared to be infested by a fanatical hatred of the world. We do not know what caused this immense feeling of hatred, but we do know that he was so tormented by it that he needed an explanation for all the evil in the world, or, more precisely, he needed someone to blame for it. Again, we do not know at which point of his life this search ended for him, but we do know the result of this search: Marcion found someone responsible in the form of the Creator. While blaming the (negative) status of the creation on the Creator is not actually an original idea, Marcion did not simply have an anonymous Creator in mind; he specifically blamed the God of the Old Testament. That the God described within these texts was the Creator of the world was (or is) a common belief among Jews and Christians alike; however, within these circles he is usually praised for his creation rather than criticized. But Marcion concentrated on those passages within the Old Testament which “exposed” him as an evil Creator. The key passage for him was Isa. 45:7, in which the Old Testament God himself “admitted”: “It is I who create evil.”(5) Apart from this general reproach, Marcion particularly blamed the Creator for the imperfect creation of man. Thus, rather than being concerned with theodicy, Marcion was the champion of anthropodicy. The fact that man is a notorious transgressor of the Law is not his fault, but the Creator’s, who simply could have created him stronger and more resistant. This concept brings us to two other features of the Old Testament God: he is Lawgiver and Judge. Obviously, Marcion had no respect for these offices, either. For this God judges people for transgressing his Law, although it is his own fault that they are too feeble to obey it. Seen in this light, he is indeed playing a very cruel game with his subjects.
Oooo-kay, but there is more.

Quote:
Marcion prohibited all sexual intercourse within his community as part of his radical ethical demands. These demands were above all motivated by a feeling of Trotz9 against the Creator: a Marcionite was supposed to deliberately disobey his commands, such as the command to “increase and multiply.” Features like these demonstrate that Marcion’s hatred for the Creator, the world, and even life itself definitely show certain pathological traits; the ultimate consequence of this lifestyle would be the extinction of the human race.

Note 9) The German term Trotz provides a perfect description of Marcion’s mentality. Unfortunately, there is no real English equivalent. The usual dictionary translation would be “defiance,” but defiance can be reflected and deliberate. Trotz, on the other hand, usually signifies defiance out of spite, very often in an almost childish way.
Oh my ... so Marcion is simply acting up like a petulant child, determined to destroy what had imposed controls on him? The term Trotz is not directed against Marcion alone, but even Marcion's view of the function of Christ.

Mark DelCogliano reviewed Moll's book The Arch-Heretic Marcion on RBL:

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Moll suggests that Marcion conceived of the good God as seeking to destroy the evil Creator God, characterizing Christ’s stance as Trotz (spiteful, almost childish defiance against the Creator and his law). Thus it is the evil God who is first in Marcion’s system and the good God who is second. “The second God could not exist without the first” (67). “The good God is a pure anti-God, who merely reacts to the malice of his counterpart” (76).
I got this spooky flash back to Stephen Carlson's characterization of Morton Smith as a "bald swindler" for daring suggest that the Secret Gospel of Mark in the fragment of the alleged letter of Clement of Alexandria he allegedly found might have included a private naked baptism rite. Smith must have had a virulant hatred of heterosexuality, culminating in a daring fraud designed to destroy the holy Christian church which had imposed a ban on homosexuality.

I'm not buying Moll's book as an act of Trotz!

Ahh, bedtime ...

DCH
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Old 09-05-2011, 10:51 PM   #23
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DCH, same impression here. In fact, it sounds like the author simply regurgitated the Catholic encyclopedia.

I think the descriptions, both you and Stephan provide above, are much closer to the fact of the matter.

In the end, it was about being free of the law. The Catholics, however, needed sin, so they adjusted the original message in order to retain it.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:52 AM   #24
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Well, I read the B&I article “A New Portrait of Marcion” (August 2011), as you suggested.

Wow! I got the impression that Moll had nothing positive to say about poor Marcion!
It's the substance of the Moll book that needs to be dealt with.......

Mark DelCogliano has summed it up well:

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Mark DelCogliano

This monograph is to be commended for its logical structure and clarity of exposition. Whether or not one ultimately finds Moll’s arguments persuasive, the reader is left in no doubt about precisely what he is suggesting. If Moll’s theses are correct, it would warrant a rewriting of the history of second-century Christianity. While one may hesitate to accept the revolutionary thesis that the evil God and the Old Testament were primary for Marcion and the God of Jesus Christ and the gospel secondary, at the least Moll has provided a helpful corrective in highlighting the importance of the Old Testament for the arch-heretic’s thought over against Harnack’s view of its obsolescence. As such, this revisionist monograph deserves careful examination by all who are interested in the development of early Christianity and the emergence of Christian canon.
Since Marcion was the first great heretic - it does require us to try and understand what his heresy was all about. A clearer picture of just what that heresy was about would be able to throw more light upon the 'truth' as understood by the developing christian tradition.

A good god and a just god - as a reflection of Marcion's dualism, just does not cut it. There is inherently no dualism there at all; a just god can be good and a good god can be just. Marcion, in his reworking of Galatians, has referenced Abraham and his two sons; the son of the bond woman and the son of the free woman. The Genesis story relates the negative dualism between the two women - the free woman, Sarah, wanting the son of the bond woman sent away so that he would never have an inheritance with her son. To side-skip this fundamental negative allegory of the Hagar and Sarah story is to deny Marcion a fundamental aspect of his theology. A negative dualism is the inherent element of his good god and an evil god theory.

'Paul', has reversed the 'persecution' element of the Genesis story (it’s now the bond woman getting rid of the free woman's son) But if the bond woman is now to send away the son of the free woman - and that son of the free woman is now in heavenly Jerusalem, then 'Paul's primary application of the Hagar and Sarah storyline is to an intellectual/heavenly context. On a secondary application, ‘Paul’ is using Hagar as representing the covenant of Mount Sinai and present Jerusalem. But with the negative dualism now removed and restricted to the new Jerusalem above, the Hagar symbolism is reflecting the Mount Sinai covenant in a positive light. Not as slavery and bondage in some dictatorial theocracy – but Law as a necessary component in human functioning. Sure, this ‘Law’ means we are all subject to it’s final dictate of death - but in the meantime...............we need it in order to understand our nature and the nature of the world in which we live. (‘Paul’ the constant dualist - one time this way - another time that way....)

For ‘Paul’, the negative dualism, of the Genesis Hagar and Sarah story, is better suited to a wholly heavenly/intellectual context than an earthly/fleshly one. Once that shift is made – both Hagar and Sarah viewed as negative figures - both figures have turns to ‘persecute’ the other figure - then Paul’s’ use of Hagar as representing the covenant at Mount Sinai is a secondary application, or view, of that covenant as representing ‘flesh’ but not evil flesh, not evil matter.. (the negativity, the ‘evil’, of the Genesis Hagar and Sarah story has been removed by ‘Paul’ to an intellectual/heavenly context).

Marcion, by the look of things, has either read 'Paul' to be referencing only the Sarah part of the allegory to be applied to heavenly Jerusalem - or simply retained the whole Genesis story of Hagar and Sarah as being a negative allegory related to only an earthy/fleshly context. But 'Paul' has clarified his intention - the reversal of the 'persecuting' or sending away - does not makes sense if the Hagar and the Sarah allegory is split down the middle with one in the new heavenly Jerusalem and the other in the present Jerusalem. It does not make sense as a continuing negative dualism between people. Once the whole Hagar and Sarah allegory of negative dualism is applied to a context of intellectual, heavenly Jerusalem, then the OT god (Marcion’s 'evil' god) has been uplifted to a context wherein positive value can be attained - god produced a son. Something unthinkable, for Marcion, that his evil OT god could have been able to do.

The problem seems to be that Marcion misunderstood this Pauline 'evil' god. Marcion seems to have looked upon this 'evil' god in a negative sense rather than a sense of great value, salvation value. That, methinks, is the big difference between 'Paul' and Marcion. Marcion failed to move the OT 'evil' god, the god of negative dualism, to the Pauline new Jerusalem - an intellectual context in which the 'evil' god could have supreme value. In other words; Marcion failed to make the Pauline switch or reversal as outlined in the Galatians passage.

Yes, for 'Paul', the intellectual/heavenly 'evil' god of negative dualism, the Genesis Hagar and Sarah storyline, was primary - that god was able to produce a son.

Yes, for Marcion, the 'evil' god, of his ‘good god evil god’ dualism, was primary - that god was responsible for all the evil in the physical world; bondage and slavery and evil matter; and 'persecutes' the son of the free woman.

It's the two contexts that are in conflict - 'Paul' upgraded the OT god concept to a dualistic ‘evil’ god in the heavenly places, a god who could produce a son. Marcion downgraded the OT god concept to a purely evil god who could only bring slavery - and who could not produce a son - and thereby limited his theology and guaranteed it a place in the dustbin of history.

(However, to give him some credit - Marcion tried to find an answer to the evil in the world - so I would not be too quick to misjudge his motives with his evil god theology..... )

As of now - that’s about how I’m seeing things....
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:36 AM   #25
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I ask once again why it is that you, mary helena, continue to trumpet a book on a subject that you have no expertise. My guess is that you've never even looked at Tertullian's book nor any of the other Patristic sources. Why do you then continue with this? As has been demonstrated by other members of the forum, Moll is clearly someone who accepts the western Patristic sources at face value. There are other sources which come to very different conclusions about Marcion. It is surprising to say the least that someone who openly rejects the historical existence of Jesus should embrace the idea that 'Marcion was the 'first heretic.' All of this demonstrates how little interest you have in seeking out the truth. Your only interest is to rearrange historical information to suit your own pet theory about Jesus.

I really wish you would stop arguing on behalf of an uncritical acceptance of western Patristric sources. Your inconsistency here is really laughable. On the one hand, you would reject Tertullian's belief that Jesus was a historical person but on the other hand, we should embrace his understanding that Marcion was a heretic from Pontus, a shipmaster who came to Rome bribed the Church there and then when he was excommunicated begged to rejoin the body.

I would tell anyone I respected that they were being inconsistent. But it should be obvious what I think about you when I don't even bother in your case.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:07 AM   #26
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I ask once again why it is that you, mary helena, continue to trumpet a book on a subject that you have no expertise. My guess is that you've never even looked at Tertullian's book nor any of the other Patristic sources. Why do you then continue with this? As has been demonstrated by other members of the forum, Moll is clearly someone who accepts the western Patristic sources at face value. There are other sources which come to very different conclusions about Marcion. It is surprising to say the least that someone who openly rejects the historical existence of Jesus should embrace the idea that 'Marcion was the 'first heretic.' All of this demonstrates how little interest you have in seeking out the truth. Your only interest is to rearrange historical information to suit your own pet theory about Jesus.

I really wish you would stop arguing on behalf of an uncritical acceptance of western Patristric sources. Your inconsistency here is really laughable. On the one hand, you would reject Tertullian's belief that Jesus was a historical person but on the other hand, we should embrace his understanding that Marcion was a heretic from Pontus, a shipmaster who came to Rome bribed the Church there and then when he was excommunicated begged to rejoin the body.

I would tell anyone I respected that they were being inconsistent. But it should be obvious what I think about you when I don't even bother in your case.
Stephan - I have reported this post as I feel it is nothing but an attempt at bullying and harassment. Please check out the forum members agreement.


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Old 09-06-2011, 09:12 AM   #27
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It is grating to continue to hear the way mary helena deals with historical evidence. She obviously had no idea that two very different reports about Marcion exist in the Patristic literature. The difficulty is that Irenaeus, the earliest witness (ignoring Justin), can be argued to witness for both models (i.e. a strict dualist and something more closely related to Judaism). I wish she would just stop learning as she goes along here. It would be my recommendation that she stop wasting everyone's time and actually read the primary sources. She should start with Irenaeus move on to Clement, Tertullian, the Philosophumena, Adamantius, Origen, Eusebius, Epiphanius, Ephrem, Eznik etc. After a few months of reading this stuff she will realize how silly this whole exercise is.

Maybe she can come up with some reason why we all had to read this stuff before having an opinion and sharing that opinion with everyone else and she doesn't have to actually read the original material. I guess actually having a working knowledge of the evidence would limit the scope of ongoing creative writing efforts in the field of Christianity. She would certainly find that Marcion limits the degree to which one can use the arguments for a wholly spiritual Jesus to argue that Christianity was a 'fiction' or 'myth.' The Marcionites certainly believed that Jesus was wholly divine but nevertheless believed that the Passion was a historical event. I wish this nonsense put forward by her and mountainman would simply end at this forum. It all develops from their lack of familiarity with the earliest sources for Christianity. It is amazing how constraining the primary sources are for reconstructing a picture of the movement. No wonder she ignores them. The sources get in the way of her 'analysis.'
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:18 AM   #28
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The issue, in my opinion, was based on the idea of perfection and how this concept was applied to God.

A perfectly just god that is, at the same time, a perfectly merciful god is a logical contradiction, therefore the god can be either perfectly just, or perfectly merciful, but not both.


Again, evil, per se, really has nothing to do with it. If anything, Marcion perhaps considered the creator to have been ignorant with regards to it's actual place in the pecking order.

Imperfection cannot spring from perfection. As the creation is imperfect, so the creator. However, the Christian god is perfect, thus a problem.
Yes, very big problem - that christian god of love! Still a big problem today, as it was back then. At least Marcion gave it a shot. The whole 'evil' element is perhaps a bad choice of words by Marcion, as reported. But there again if the creation, man, can turn his hand to evil - then man's creator also has a hand in that evil. So it's around the houses we go...
Indeed, man's creator admits as much and seems proud of the fact, to boot.
You are correct, the Christian god of love is still an issue even today, as such a notion is contradicted by the source for the traits of the god itself.

I still am not sure where Moll is getting Marcion's actual words from. I am aware of a lot of the love letters from his fans, but nothing from the man himself.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:19 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
It is grating to continue to hear the way mary helena deals with historical evidence. She obviously had no idea that two very different reports about Marcion exist in the Patristic literature. The difficulty is that Irenaeus, the earliest witness (ignoring Justin), can be argued to witness for both models (i.e. a strict dualist and something more closely related to Judaism). I wish she would just stop learning as she goes along here. It would be my recommendation that she stop wasting everyone's time and actually read the primary sources. She should start with Irenaeus move on to Clement, Tertullian, the Philosophumena, Adamantius, Origen, Eusebius, Epiphanius, Ephrem, Eznik etc. After a few months of reading this stuff she will realize how silly this whole exercise is.
But Stephan, it is fun.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:21 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
It is grating to continue to hear the way mary helena deals with historical evidence. She obviously had no idea that two very different reports about Marcion exist in the Patristic literature. The difficulty is that Irenaeus, the earliest witness (ignoring Justin), can be argued to witness for both models (i.e. a strict dualist and something more closely related to Judaism). I wish she would just stop learning as she goes along here. It would be my recommendation that she stop wasting everyone's time and actually read the primary sources. She should start with Irenaeus move on to Clement, Tertullian, the Philosophumena, Adamantius, Origen, Eusebius, Epiphanius, Ephrem, Eznik etc. After a few months of reading this stuff she will realize how silly this whole exercise is.
Stephan - your argument is not with me - it is with Sebastian Moll and his new theory on Marcion: The Arch-Heretic Marcion. I suggest that you take your issues up with Moll. Yes, his book, his theory on Marcion brings into serious question your own theory - but that's the nature of scholarly research. And to call Moll a 'fool', as you did in an earlier post, only betrays the fact that Moll has struck a nerve.
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