Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 12-15-2006, 11:50 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

Quote:

The spelling Christ in English dates from the 17th century, when, in the spirit of the enlightenment, spellings of certain words were changed to fit their Greek or Latin origins. Prior to this, in Old and Middle English, the word was spelled Crist, the i being pronounced either as [i] (see IPA pronunciation), preserved in the names of churches such as St Katherine Cree, or as a short i, preserved in the modern pronunciation of Christmas.

The term appears in English and most European languages owing to the Greek usage of it in the New Testament as a description for Jesus. In the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, it was used to translate into Greek the Hebrew Mashiach (Messiah), meaning "[one who is] anointed". While many Christian writers claim that this term implied a match to the criteria of being anointed that Jewish tradition had given to their predicted future saviour, some argue that there is no "saviour" concept, as suggested in Christianity, in the Jewish tradition. The "anointed" one more closely means 'high priest', 'leader', or even 'ruler'.

The Greek term is cognate with Chrism, meaning perfumed oil; in fact Christ in classical Greek usage could mean covered in oil, and is thus a literal and accurate translation of Messiah. The Greek term is thought to derive from the Proto-Indo-European root of ghrei-, which in Germanic languages, such as English, mutated into gris- and grim-. Hence the English words grisly, grim, grime, and grease, are thought to be cognate with Christ, though these terms came to have a negative connotation, where the Greek word had a positive connotation. In French, the Greek term, in ordinary usage, mutated first to cresme and then to creme, due to the loss of certain 's' usages in French, which was loaned into English as cream. The word was used by extension in Hellenic and Jewish contexts to refer to the office, role or status of the person, not to their actually having oil on their body, as a strict reading of the etymology might imply.

According to Tom Harpur, a former professor of Theology at the University of Toronto who denies the historicity of Jesus, the Christian usage of the term Christ derives from Egypt. Harpur has argued that the application of the term Christ to Jesus derives from the Egyptian use of the term Karast (covered in embalming oil) to describe Horus, who Harpur also alleges that much of the descriptions of Jesus are copied from. Karast is a false cognate to Christ, and Harpur has alleged that this co-incidence was the reason that Christians chose this appellation of Horus rather than any other, since in Jewish circles, Christ readily brings to mind the Jewish belief in a Messiah.

Malachi151 · 12-15-2006, 11:59 AM

That's exactly what we need for this analysis, btu can we get a better source for this than Wikipedia?

Peter Kirby · 12-15-2006, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

If you want to work directly on the Greek, please don't let me stop you.

Okay, I won't. :grin:

The issues of "not father but brother" and "OMGOMGOMG the word CHRIST" are separate and will be treated separately from the alleged queerness of putting the apposite phrase before the name. (Which is to say, they won't be treated in this post, though they have been treated by me in the past.)

Similar Greek constructions that place the name after a phrase can be found in Dionysius Halicarnassus at AR 7.12.5, 8.89.4; in Josephus at AJ 17.290, 18.40.

"The extreme nature of the calamity was shown in the case of an important city of the Volscians named Velitrae, (τῆς συμφορᾶς πόλις ἐπιφανὴς τῶν Οὐολούσκων, Οὐέλιτραι ὄνομα αὐτῇ,) till then a large and populous place, of which the plague left but one person out of every ten, attacking and carrying off all the rest."

"Thereupon strict inquiry was made by everyone, and at last information was given to the pontiffs that one of the virgins who guarded the sacred fire, Opimia by name, (τῶν παρθένων μία τῶν φυλαττουσῶν τὸ ἱερὸν πῦρ, Ὀπιμία ὄνομα αὐτῇ) had lost her virginity and was polluting the holy rites."

"but pitched his camp at a certain village that belonged to Ptolemy, whose name was Arus (δὲ ἔν τινι κώμῃ πτολεμαίου κτήματι, Ἀροὺς ὄνομα αὐτῇ), which the Arabians burnt, out of their hatred to Herod, and out of the enmity they bore to his friends"

"When Phraates had had legitimate sons of his own, he had also an Italian maid-servant, whose name was Thermusa, (Φραάτης παίδων αὐτῷ γενομένων γνησίων Ἰταλικῆς παιδίσκης ὄνομα αὐτῇ Θεσμοῦσα) who had been formerly sent to him by Julius Caesar, among other presents."

So, while the construction cannot be considered exceedingly common, there is no reason to find it queer on account of the ordering of words.

--
Peter Kirby

Malachi151 · 12-15-2006, 02:33 PM

I'd still like to see an example of "christ" being applied to someone else other than Jesus during the first century. Surely there is an example of this?

Peter Kirby · 12-15-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I'd still like to see an example of "christ" being applied to someone else other than Jesus during the first century. Surely there is an example of this?

Hmmm. I wish I had that quote saying that there is no example of this, but I've misplaced it somewhere along the years. It might have been Raymond Brown.

--
Peter Kirby

Clivedurdle · 12-15-2006, 03:06 PM

Don't we have a couple of examples in Josephus....?

Peter Kirby · 12-15-2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Don't we have a couple of examples in Josephus....?

No, the two in our text of Josephus are 18.3.3 and 20.9.1.

--
Peter Kirby

Clivedurdle · 12-15-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I'd still like to see an example of "christ" being applied to someone else other than Jesus during the first century. Surely there is an example of this?

Yes! In the Josephus quote above and probably every other use of the term Christ or Messiah anywhere!

It is an assumption that they refer to LJC! What is the problem with the term meaning annointed high priest? Does not even Hebrews state that?

It is an assumption to state "Christ Jesus" is a name of a person - it means annointed or annointing saviour - why not have a nameless saviour for a long time? What is all this pouring out of the Holy spirit about? What did the ancients think about how perfumes and smells spread? Did spirits move smells?

Peter Kirby · 12-15-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Yes! In the Josephus quote above and probably every other use of the term Christ or Messiah anywhere!

But Josephus is recorded as using the term only in 18.3.3 and 20.9.1.

--
Peter Kirby

spin · 12-15-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

The issues of "not father but brother" and "OMGOMGOMG the word CHRIST" are separate and will be treated separately from the alleged queerness of putting the apposite phrase before the name.

Peter, divide and conquer works with fighting forces. It's been tried in the past. I have not said that any of the issues by themselves is impossible. I have said that each is uncharacteristic of language use of the time. Adding them together makes them exceedingly strange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Similar Greek constructions that place the name after a phrase can be found in Dionysius Halicarnassus at AR 7.12.5, 8.89.4; in Josephus at AJ 17.290, 18.40.

But Peter that is not at issue. Besides the fact that we are not dealing with place names, did anyone say that a name couldn't be placed after a descriptive phrase? Josephus usually introduces people -- who become the topic of the narrative -- in traditional Jewish manner by saying who the person's father was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

"The extreme nature of the calamity was shown in the case of an important city of the Volscians named Velitrae, (τῆς συμφορᾶς πόλις ἐπιφανὴς τῶν Οὐολούσκων, Οὐέλιτραι ὄνομα αὐτῇ,) till then a large and populous place, of which the plague left but one person out of every ten, attacking and carrying off all the rest."

"Thereupon strict inquiry was made by everyone, and at last information was given to the pontiffs that one of the virgins who guarded the sacred fire, Opimia by name, (τῶν παρθένων μία τῶν φυλαττουσῶν τὸ ἱερὸν πῦρ, Ὀπιμία ὄνομα αὐτῇ) had lost her virginity and was polluting the holy rites."

"but pitched his camp at a certain village that belonged to Ptolemy, whose name was Arus (δὲ ἔν τινι κώμῃ πτολεμαίου κτήματι, Ἀροὺς ὄνομα αὐτῇ), which the Arabians burnt, out of their hatred to Herod, and out of the enmity they bore to his friends"

"When Phraates had had legitimate sons of his own, he had also an Italian maid-servant, whose name was Thermusa, (Φραάτης παίδων αὐτῷ γενομένων γνησίων Ἰταλικῆς παιδίσκης ὄνομα αὐτῇ Θεσμοῦσα) who had been formerly sent to him by Julius Caesar, among other presents."

So, while the construction cannot be considered exceedingly common, there is no reason to find it queer on account of the ordering of words.

And I hope that made you feel good, but I don't think you are dealing with what is asked of you.

The issues are:

the familial relationship is not father but brother,
the relationship is put before the person, when the qualifier is unknown and not recently mentioned,
the qualifier itself is qualified, and
the qualifier of the qualifier contains a term shunned by Josephus ("christ" -- "OMGOMGOMG").

Each of the first two is infrequent and the two together make the structure even rarer. At the same time there seems to be no narrative purpose for these rarities. I haven't come across an example of the qualifier being qualified -- though this may just be happenstance --, so this rarifies the rarity. But the term "christ" only occurs ironically in the two questioned references to Jesus.

With the exception of "christ" I accept the possibility of each issue, but, Peter, it's a matter of getting all of them in the one statement that counts. It's a bit like the current three-drug HIV therapy: enough of the virus might mutate to survive the first drug, but the second, which catches it elsewhere in the reproductive cycle, makes sure they die, and the third, which is aimed at another phase, is there just in case.

spin

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12-15-2006, 11:59 AM	#22
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	That's exactly what we need for this analysis, btu can we get a better source for this than Wikipedia?

12-15-2006, 02:33 PM	#24
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I'd still like to see an example of "christ" being applied to someone else other than Jesus during the first century. Surely there is an example of this?

12-15-2006, 03:06 PM	#26
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Don't we have a couple of examples in Josephus....?

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