Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yummyfur · 05-04-2005, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

In the Old Testament's Song of Solomon we learn of the bridal anointing of the king. It is detailed that the oil used in Judah was the fragrant ointment of spikenard (an expensive root oil from the Himalayas) and it is explained that this ritual was performed while the kingly husband sat at the table.

Just an aside; the word in Hebrew in Song of Solomon is Nerd, and the Greek Nardos, this can apply to alot of aromatic plants. Actually Nardos in Greek, though it is used for Indian spikenard, comes from the Syrian Town of Naarda, along the Euphrates, and it's original meaning applied to Lavender.

spin · 05-04-2005, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

The word 'Messiah' comes from the Hebrew verb mashiach: 'to anoint', which derives from the Egyptian messeh: 'the holy crocodile'.

Actually, no, this is a load of bollocks.

Firstly, the verb is M$X -- there's no YOD in it. The YOD makes it a noun, as in "messiah".

Secondly, the verb means "to smear, anoint". Note that "smear"? It makes the Greek verb xriw a perfect translation.

Thirdly, the verb M$X is a cognate of the Arabic m$x and I bet you can't guess what that means! Yup, "smear, anoint". Palmyrean M$X) means "oil", as the Hebrew M$XH means "ointment".

Pesh. Mk 6:13 They anointed with oil, M$XYN HWW BM$X).

--o0o--

Dear moderators. How about if we add a rule to this forum, that if someone wants to mke linguistic arguments, they need to show that they know something about linguistics? It gets tiresome to come across indications that a writer simply hasn't done the homework. Is a quick trip to www.etymonline.com a sufficient substitute for linguistic knowledge? Ahh, no.

spin

mopc · 05-04-2005, 11:46 PM

Spin, you should visit the Koko gets a toothache thread on Evolution vs Creation, from page 10 on, to see what linguistic ignorance is.

yummyfur · 05-04-2005, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

Thanks yummyfur!

The Judeo-OINTMENT values...how precious!

I'm not sure why your thanking me, as the classical Greek usage kind of puts a huge damper on your Christos = "one to whom one pours an oil libation"/god "etymology".

spin · 05-05-2005, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mopc

Spin, you should visit the Koko gets a toothache thread on Evolution vs Creation, from page 10 on, to see what linguistic ignorance is.

I've seen all sorts of linguistic disability, but there are people here on BC&H who either know something about the languages necessary or are taking steps to know more. It is a prerequisite for philological discussion which is the meat of a lot of the discussion here.

spin

Dharma · 05-05-2005, 09:32 AM

Ah, an excellent site that discuss Christos, Messiach and Moshiya...

http://users.tpg.com.au/kapteyn/messiah.htm

Quote:

One thing we can establish and that is that the Greek Christos comes from the Greek Chri which means to rub with an oily or greasy substance and can be translated as anointed.
The expression christos was used for certain associates of several pagan gods. Anointing was a wide spread pagan ritual....

......

Let us have a look at the Tanakh for the use of the word anointed. It comes from the verb mashach, which means, "to smear with oil" . It appears 66 times in about 18 different grammatical forms.
One of the forms is mashiyach, meaning anointed with oil and we find this used about 38 times.
The main occurrences of mashiyach are about people and objects connected with the Temple service.
We find, HaCohen HaMashiyach for a person anointed as a priest. Kings also were anointed.

.....

There is however a title that fits Yeshua better and that is Moshiya, meaning a deliverer or, one who delivers.
We can show this from the Tanakh.
Moshiya is a form of the verb yasha meaning, to save or to deliver.
It is found, in its different grammatic forms, 198 times in the Tanakh. Also from yasha comes yesha which means salvation and occurs 35 times in the Tanakh.
We find it among others in Isaiah 19:20 & 43:11.

Let us examine the use of this expression in Isaiah 43:3
It says in the first part:
Kee anee YHVH eloheycha kedosh yisrael mosheeyech
translated,
Because I am Yahweh your deity, holy one of Israel, your deliverer.
Now this is the Female gender, often used to address the nation Israel. The male gender is "Moshiyecha"
The literal meaning of Moshiyecha as a form of yasha is, "The one pointed to by this title, causes to be salvation to you"
We find the same expression in Isaiah 49:26 and in Isaiah 60:17.
When we read Isaiah chapter 60, we see that this talks about the final deliverance of Israel. It also states clearly that Yahweh does the delivering.
Isaiah Chapters 58 through 63 are interesting reading, because they pertain to Israel today and in the near future.
In Isaiah chapter 19, we find a prophesy against Egypt that not yet has been fulfilled and in verse 20 we read that Yahweh will send them a Savior and here we find in the original Hebrew, the word moshiya.
Now I would like to point out a very very important statement.
It says in Isa. 44:11:
I, I, am Yahweh and apart from me there is no moshiya!
In Isa.45:15:
Elohey yisrael moshiya
The context of these verses indicates that Yahweh stretches the point that He is Yahweh and does not call Himself Lord or any other name and He is theonly moshiya.
Moshiya is the hiphil form of the verb 'yasha' meaning, 'cause to deliver,' the mood of the verb is particle, which indicates an 'unbroken continuity.'
We could therefore say it means, "The one causing deliverance" and Moshiyecha(m) or Moshiyech(f) therefore means, "The one causing your deliverance."
Also, all the references made in the Tanakh about the deliverer of Israel, use a form of the verb 'yasha'(to deliver), they never use a form of the verb 'masach'(to anoint).

yummyfur · 05-05-2005, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

Ah, an excellent site that discuss Christos, Messiach and Moshiya...

http://users.tpg.com.au/kapteyn/messiah.htm

Well if Jan Kapteyn, a dutch computer technician and born again Christian with no linguistic background, says so, it must be true!

I don't get the point, Christian works aren't written in Hebrew, so who cares. how does this help your etymology of Christos?

This guy says

" We find this in Isaiah 45:1 There Yahweh says: limshiycho ligoresh. This is usually translated as: to my anointed to Cyrus (Cores).However, it should have been translated as; to my deliverer to Cyrus."

Unfortunatly the Greek for Isaiah 45:1 has the word christos. There is no basis for translating the Hebrew as deliverer, it's pure drivel and the guy doesn't know Hebrew from a hole in the wall. Besides the obvious incompetence in Hebrew, wouldn't this be a problem since Isaiah has already just stated that no one but God is your deliverer.

LeeBuhrul · 05-05-2005, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma

Christos ...Christians simply means "the oil people"...

does that make Chevron/Texaco the true church of christ?

spin · 05-05-2005, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yummyfur

Well if Jan Kapteyn, a dutch computer technician and born again Christian with no linguistic background, says so, it must be true!

What's interesting is that the person uses transcriptions that are modern Jewish in form.

I guess the reason why he's interested in the verb "yasha" Y$( is because it is the root of Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yummyfur

I don't get the point, Christian works aren't written in Hebrew, so who cares. how does this help your etymology of Christos?

I think the logic is that we want to pull the christian religion to pieces by attacking it linguistically. So, if M$X is not the source of messiah then christos doesn't relate to messiah.

spin

Dharma · 05-05-2005, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yummyfur

Well if Jan Kapteyn, a dutch computer technician and born again Christian with no linguistic background, says so, it must be true!

I don't get the point, Christian works aren't written in Hebrew, so who cares. how does this help your etymology of Christos?

This guy says

" We find this in Isaiah 45:1 There Yahweh says: limshiycho ligoresh. This is usually translated as: to my anointed to Cyrus (Cores).However, it should have been translated as; to my deliverer to Cyrus."

Unfortunatly the Greek for Isaiah 45:1 has the word christos. There is no basis for translating the Hebrew as deliverer, it's pure drivel and the guy doesn't know Hebrew from a hole in the wall. Besides the obvious incompetence in Hebrew, wouldn't this be a problem since Isaiah has already just stated that no one but God is your deliverer.

well, this person came to the same conclusion about the words as you did...sheesh...some people! :huh:

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05-04-2005, 11:46 PM	#13
mopc Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: São Paulo, Brazil Posts: 1,504	Spin, you should visit the Koko gets a toothache thread on Evolution vs Creation, from page 10 on, to see what linguistic ignorance is.

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