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Old 04-30-2004, 02:53 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by the_cave
But then who were these apostles, Simon/Peter/Cephas, James, Paul? Why does James have a mother named Mary? Would they, too, be fictional creations?
Perhaps all, perhaps some, perhaps none.

I have argued elsewhere that I think Peter and Cephas were two distinct figures. Paul uses "Cephas" exclusively -- oh except for the obvious interpolation in Gal 2:7-8 which suddenly mentions Peter in a dose of oecumenical unity. But even Galatians has its troubles. Who James, Cephas, and John were is difficult to divine from Paul, but apparently Jerusalemite messianists antagonistic to Paul and his gospel which he could go away and preach elsewhere. As to the name of James's mother, I would have preferred Wendy.

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Originally Posted by the_cave
What I'm saying is, even if their writings are inauthentic, even if the history is garbled or false, even if there is no accurate written record--isn't the most likely explanation that there were real people who went by these names, and that they must have had something to do with the early Christian movement, or its predecessors?
I've just been reading about xian creation of such facts. Did you know Pilate had a wife named Procula (Procla)? Or that he even may have been a xian sympathist? And she was converted by a Phoenician house-maid who believed? Or that for some Pilate was crucified, himself?? And did you know about his having been a saint in the Ethiopian church? Read the Letters of Pilate or the Acts of Pilate.

And you say, but there was a Pilate. And I'd say yes, and he may have been married to someone and an important man would have had servants. Stories write themselves and their characters multiply like rabbits.


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Old 04-30-2004, 03:02 AM   #32
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Well, the _cave,

As I have now read Darrell Doughty's piece on the Pliny the Younger/Trajan letters, I see that there are some real problems with these too.

Your last question is an interesting one - why during the reign of Pilate.

It needs to be long enough ago that contrary evidence is difficult to array, and also before the destruction of the temple. But not so long before the destruction that it cannot be associated with it. The destruction of the Kingdom, the temple, and Jesus have to be roughly coincident.

You have a lot of HB material you have to satisfy. JBapt has to be stuck in there.

don't have time to work it all out, nor am I an expert. But the place in history was chosen out of a maximizing calculus.
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Old 04-30-2004, 06:55 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by the_cave
So what happened during the reign of Pontius Pilate that the early Christians should hold the era in such reverence?
After considerable study of Scripture, fasting and praying, one or more individuals claimed to have seen/experienced/witnessed the Risen Christ. After the first experiences were related, others claimed that the Risen Christ had appeared to them and the movement began.
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