Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 11-03-2012, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Most religions are very intolerant of other religions and very cruel to any non-believers: the extra ecclesiam nulla salus dogma is an example of this intolerance that condemns every human who lives outside the godly club to eternal hell-fire.

Salvation by faith is another example of the same insane cruelty

Religions thrive on conflict and actively seek confrontation, in the name of alien ancient writings, in order to impose on others archaic forms of living.

not a major problem in countries with religious freedom.

other then that I would agree

The natural growth of Islam and Christianity is such that they behave like an invasive virus which lays dormant until it has acquired the strength to replace the existing order with the boon of salvation; it takes over the society that has tolerated it.

This is an example of the behaviour of one such invasive alien religion.

“The Church Militant was thus an army encamped on the soil of Christendom, with its outposts everywhere, subject to the most efficient discipline, animated with a common purpose, every soldier equipped with inviolability and armed with the tremendous weapons which slew the soul.

There was little that could not be dared or done by the commander of such a force, whose orders were listened to as revelations of God,”

Henry Charles Lea

outhouse · 11-03-2012, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

not a major problem in countries with religious freedom.

other then that I would agree

The natural growth of Islam and Christianity is such that they behave like an invasive virus which lays dormant until it has acquired the strength to replace the existing order with the boon of salvation; it takes over the society that has tolerated it.

This is an example of the behaviour of one such invasive alien religion.

“The Church Militant was thus an army encamped on the soil of Christendom, with its outposts everywhere, subject to the most efficient discipline, animated with a common purpose, every soldier equipped with inviolability and armed with the tremendous weapons which slew the soul.

There was little that could not be dared or done by the commander of such a force, whose orders were listened to as revelations of God,”

Henry Charles Lea

Christianity is loosing their grip of power in the uSA which for the most part was it best stronghold. Even here and now, much of what your now stating doesnt apply at all

and really, sounds more like fantasy then anything else, and has nothing at all to do with the OP

Iskander · 11-03-2012, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The natural growth of Islam and Christianity is such that they behave like an invasive virus which lays dormant until it has acquired the strength to replace the existing order with the boon of salvation; it takes over the society that has tolerated it.

This is an example of the behaviour of one such invasive alien religion.

“The Church Militant was thus an army encamped on the soil of Christendom, with its outposts everywhere, subject to the most efficient discipline, animated with a common purpose, every soldier equipped with inviolability and armed with the tremendous weapons which slew the soul.

There was little that could not be dared or done by the commander of such a force, whose orders were listened to as revelations of God,”

Henry Charles Lea

Christianity is loosing their grip of power in the uSA which for the most part was it best stronghold. Even here and now, much of what your now stating doesnt apply at all

and really, sounds more like fantasy then anything else, and has nothing at all to do with the OP

It is Christian history, it is not fantasy. It has taken a lot of painful efforts to make it only history. The pattern of behaviour is a common characteristic shared by other religions.

outhouse · 11-03-2012, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Christianity is loosing their grip of power in the uSA which for the most part was it best stronghold. Even here and now, much of what your now stating doesnt apply at all

and really, sounds more like fantasy then anything else, and has nothing at all to do with the OP

It is Christian history, it is not fantasy. It has taken a lot of painful efforts to make it only history. The pattern of behaviour is a common characteristic shared by other religions.

so its long in the past and has nothing to do with the OP is what your really trying to say?

thi spost has nothing t do with your anti-theism

Iskander · 11-03-2012, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

It is Christian history, it is not fantasy. It has taken a lot of painful efforts to make it only history. The pattern of behaviour is a common characteristic shared by other religions.

so its long in the past and has nothing to do with the OP is what your really trying to say?

thi spost has nothing t do with your anti-theism

The OP is about the beginnings of Christianity which is in the past.

If you want to take a nap I am not stopping you.

Clivedurdle · 11-04-2012, 11:01 AM

Quote:

2 Maccabees

Shortly before the revolt of Judas Maccabeus (2 Maccabees 8), Antiochus IV Epiphanes arrested a mother and her seven sons, and tried to force them to eat pork. When they refused, he tortured and killed the sons one by one. The narrator mentions that the mother "was the most remarkable of all, and deserves to be remembered with special honour. She watched her seven sons die in the space of a single day, yet she bore it bravely because she put her trust in the Lord."[4] Each of the sons makes a speech as he dies, and the last one says that his brothers are "dead under God's covenant of everlasting life".[5] The narrator ends by saying that the mother died, without saying whether she was executed, or died in some other way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman_with_seven_sons

My understanding is that the Essenes were most left wing, pharisees mildly left wing, being anti slavery, the saducees and zealots equivalent of fascist priestly types.

sotto voce · 11-04-2012, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

2 Maccabees

Shortly before the revolt of Judas Maccabeus (2 Maccabees 8), Antiochus IV Epiphanes arrested a mother and her seven sons, and tried to force them to eat pork. When they refused, he tortured and killed the sons one by one. The narrator mentions that the mother "was the most remarkable of all, and deserves to be remembered with special honour. She watched her seven sons die in the space of a single day, yet she bore it bravely because she put her trust in the Lord."[4] Each of the sons makes a speech as he dies, and the last one says that his brothers are "dead under God's covenant of everlasting life".[5] The narrator ends by saying that the mother died, without saying whether she was executed, or died in some other way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman_with_seven_sons

My understanding is that the Essenes were most left wing, pharisees mildly left wing, being anti slavery, the saducees and zealots equivalent of fascist priestly types.

I wonder what confused/twisted amateur you have been listening to.

PhilosopherJay · 11-04-2012, 12:16 PM

Hi Clivedurdle,

The story from 2 Maccabees is probably derived not from any true incident, but from seven sons mythlogies. Here's one from the Mahabharata.

Quote:

Bhishma was born as the eighth son of the illustrious King Shantanu and Ganga. As per the Mahabharata, Shantanu saw Ganga on the banks of river Ganga (Ganges) and enamoured of her beauty, asked her to marry him. She agreed but with the condition that Shantanu would never question her, no matter what her actions — if he ever broke his promise, she would leave him, never to be a part of his life again. Shantanu readily agreed to this seemingly harmless condition and was thus married to Ganga. Eight children were born to this union, the eighth of which was Bhishma himself. The seven siblings born before him were drowned by their mother Ganga in order to break their curse — as they were incarnations of the aforementioned Vasus, who do not like to live the life of Humans. Shantanu silently bore the torture of watching his wife drown his offspring seven times. However, when Ganga was about to drown Bhishma, Shantanu could no longer contain his anguish and burst into protest. Ganga, aware of the eighth child's destiny to live a long life on earth, did not drown the child. However, since Shantanu had broken his promise given to her at marriage, she left Shantanu promising to return the child to him once he is grown up.

Also we have the story of Niobe (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/n/niobe.html):

Quote:

Niobe and Amphion had fourteen children (the Niobids), and in a moment of arrogance, Niobe bragged about her seven sons and seven daughters at a ceremony in honor of Leto, the daughter of the titans Coeus and Phoebe. She mocked Leto, who only had two children, Apollo, god of prophecy and music, and Artemis, virgin goddess of the wild. Leto did not take the insult lightly, and in retaliation, sent Apollo and Artemis to earth to slaughter all of Niobe's children. Apollo killed the seven sons while they practiced their athletics. The last son begged to be spared, but the arrow had already left Apollo's bow, and the boy was struck dead. Artemis killed the seven daughters with her lethal arrows. (Some versions have a few of the children being spared.)

At the sight of his dead sons, Amphion either committed suicide or was also killed by Apollo for wanting to avenge his children's deaths. In any event, Niobe's entire family was dead in a matter of minutes. In shock, she cradled the youngest daughter in her arms, then fled to Mt. Siplyon in Asia Minor. There she turned to stone and from the rock formed a stream (the Achelous) from her ceaseless tears. She became the symbol of eternal mourning.

Just as we get political allegory/myth disguised as history here, we get the same in the NT.

As far as the groups in Judea, I am not sure if it makes sense to try to relate them to modern political scales or modern ideologies.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

2 Maccabees

Shortly before the revolt of Judas Maccabeus (2 Maccabees 8), Antiochus IV Epiphanes arrested a mother and her seven sons, and tried to force them to eat pork. When they refused, he tortured and killed the sons one by one. The narrator mentions that the mother "was the most remarkable of all, and deserves to be remembered with special honour. She watched her seven sons die in the space of a single day, yet she bore it bravely because she put her trust in the Lord."[4] Each of the sons makes a speech as he dies, and the last one says that his brothers are "dead under God's covenant of everlasting life".[5] The narrator ends by saying that the mother died, without saying whether she was executed, or died in some other way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woman_with_seven_sons

My understanding is that the Essenes were most left wing, pharisees mildly left wing, being anti slavery, the saducees and zealots equivalent of fascist priestly types.

mountainman · 11-06-2012, 03:28 AM

Hi Philosopher Jay,

If Christianity is to be examined as an anti-priest movement and if you are considering a 2nd century authorship for the new and strange testament then it is logical that the authors already knew that the Jewish priesthood had been scattered and destroyed a number of times. Therefore it seems that references AGAINST the Jewish priesthood are simply retrospective propaganda.

The new and strange testament is also extremely concerned with being AGAINST the gentile (i.e. pagan) priesthood. When the size and influence of the 2nd century Jewish priesthood is compared to the 2nd century pagan priesthood we have a mouse and an elephant in the room.

I would very quickly agree with the OP statement that Christianity Begins as Anti-Priest Movement when we also consider the pagan priesthood. The legend of christianity ends when the Christian Bishops replaced the pagan priests. The political involvement of the Jewish priesthood in the 2nd century, if this is when the new and strange testament was authored, must have been neglible. The political involvment of the pagan priesthood in the Roman Empire was extremely significant. Christianity ended the pagan priesthood and the Greek intellectual tradition for more than a millenium.

To what extent did Christianity Begin as Anti-Pagan Priest Movement?

Nice OP.

Best wishes

Pete Brown
Amateur Historian

Iskander · 11-06-2012, 05:17 AM

Every religion starts as “an anti-priest movement”.

Religions proclaim that they are the path to god and the way to achieve eternal salvation and derive wealth and political power from that.

A successful new religion – whatever its efforts to reassure and comfort the priests of the dominant religion—will redirect wealth and political influence to themselves and become the new religious order. The priests of the older religion, once the dominant one, are the losers

11-06-2012, 03:28 AM	#39
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	To what extent did Christianity Begin as Anti-Pagan Priest Movement? Hi Philosopher Jay, If Christianity is to be examined as an anti-priest movement and if you are considering a 2nd century authorship for the new and strange testament then it is logical that the authors already knew that the Jewish priesthood had been scattered and destroyed a number of times. Therefore it seems that references AGAINST the Jewish priesthood are simply retrospective propaganda. The new and strange testament is also extremely concerned with being AGAINST the gentile (i.e. pagan) priesthood. When the size and influence of the 2nd century Jewish priesthood is compared to the 2nd century pagan priesthood we have a mouse and an elephant in the room. I would very quickly agree with the OP statement that Christianity Begins as Anti-Priest Movement when we also consider the pagan priesthood. The legend of christianity ends when the Christian Bishops replaced the pagan priests. The political involvement of the Jewish priesthood in the 2nd century, if this is when the new and strange testament was authored, must have been neglible. The political involvment of the pagan priesthood in the Roman Empire was extremely significant. Christianity ended the pagan priesthood and the Greek intellectual tradition for more than a millenium. To what extent did Christianity Begin as Anti-Pagan Priest Movement? Nice OP. Best wishes Pete Brown Amateur Historian

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11-06-2012, 05:17 AM	#40
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	Every religion starts as “an anti-priest movement”. Religions proclaim that they are the path to god and the way to achieve eternal salvation and derive wealth and political power from that. A successful new religion – whatever its efforts to reassure and comfort the priests of the dominant religion—will redirect wealth and political influence to themselves and become the new religious order. The priests of the older religion, once the dominant one, are the losers

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