Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Larsguy47 · 04-20-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Archaeology of the Land of the Bible: 10,000-586 B.C.E.
Amihai Mazar

Larsguy47, why don't you read this book, or one like it, before you spout off anymore of your nonsense about what is and is not preserved in the desert. You show no evidence of having done any serious research on the matter.

When you’ve absorbed its contents, let us know.

RED DAVE

Thanks RED DAVE, I intend to. It's a $58 book so will likely try to get it through the Library Book exchange. Seems fascinating, even though I'm less interested now in what they've found (lilke Jericho) but what they aren't finding and what is reasonable to expect after all this time.

Thanks for the reference.

LG47

Larsguy47 · 04-20-2007, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47 (aka Messiah):
I rest my case.

RED DAVE

You know, it amazes me that the anti-Biblicalists are just as deperate as the apologists to make what is there NOT work. So there are biases on each side. When something even remotely agrees with the Bible's chronology, like the RC14 dating for Rehov all I got was claims the evidence wasn't really supportive. Or when the Exodus is linked with Akhenaten and Kenyon is cited, they all jumped on her findings. So this "Oh those Christians are all dumb and desperate" just isn't he case. There's plenty of evidence supporting the Bible after Shishak as I noted, even archaeological evidence such as from Ashkelon that was destroyed for 70-80 years per archaeologists just before the Persian Period, confirming the Bible's reference that that city would be destroyed for 70 years. Akhenaten's conversion to monotheism is more than apparent to confirm the 10 plagues really happened. So it's just this rather blank period between the Exodus and Shishak's invasion that seems rather mysterious.

LG47

RED DAVE · 04-20-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

You know, it amazes me that the anti-Biblicalists are just as deperate as the apologists to make what is there NOT work. So there are biases on each side. When something even remotely agrees with the Bible's chronology, like the RC14 dating for Rehov all I got was claims the evidence wasn't really supportive. Or when the Exodus is linked with Akhenaten and Kenyon is cited, they all jumped on her findings. So this "Oh those Christians are all dumb and desperate" just isn't he case. There's plenty of evidence supporting the Bible after Shishak as I noted, even archaeological evidence such as from Ashkelon that was destroyed for 70-80 years per archaeologists just before the Persian Period, confirming the Bible's reference that that city would be destroyed for 70 years. Akhenaten's conversion to monotheism is more than apparent to confirm the 10 plagues really happened. So it's just this rather blank period between the Exodus and Shishak's invasion that seems rather mysterious.

LG47

Blathering and usual nonsense. No evidence of millions of people wandering around for decades. No Exodus.

Burden of proof is on you.

RED DAVE

Larsguy47 · 04-20-2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avatar

So because there's no evidence of your Exodus, you presume that some catastrophic event mist have hit a giant "reset" button? That won't wash either. Archaeologists and geologists know what to look for...signs of past disasters and such. No such indications are present in the area during the critical time periods.

There is evidence. Akhenaten became a monotheist, remember? People expect some kind of an impact. How about a religious one?

Quote:

Several hundred thousand people, possibly a million or more, and they ALL cleaned up after themselves with a level of skill and thoroughness that has never been seen before...for forty years?

Yes, it was culturally mandated. Ever hear about LITER LAWS? No dumping rules? Same applied here. There was no reason their camps were not organized and well kept up. It's not like they had a lot else to do, right?

Quote:

And no mass latrines or mass graves either. Why do you suppose that is?

They were in the wilderness. Apparently they used a digging instrument to dig a hole and were to bury their excretement which biodegraded. The only things that survive archaeologically are those things that are not biodegradable. Some wood survives under certain circumstances but otherwise just metal and clay or stone.

Quote:

Did they just "hold it" for forty years? And wasn't the purpose of wandering around for so long to get the older generation to die off? Where are their graves?

I'm wondering too. But SPECIFICALLY, what would happen if you buried a body without jewelry in a shallow grave? What would happen to it? What would you expect to find 10 years later? What happens to the bones? Are we supposed to be finding lots of bones?

Quote:

The Exodus tale is quite specific: Hundreds of thousands of people. Yet not a trace of their magical trek can be found.

Right, I'm wondering why too. But I'm not going to look for any footprints in the sand, right? Really what would be left for us to find at this late date?

Quote:

Maybe because...it didn't happen?

We know it happened, we're just looking at why there is no little evidence of it happening.

Quote:

Have you ever read Le Mort D'Arthur? The gentleman who wrote it created it because he felt that England didn't have a sufficiently impressive mythical history. So he cobbled together the stories from previously existing cultures and created his own cast to populate the tales. From this we get King Arthur and his Round Table. Is it so far beyond the pale that the ancient Hebrews may have simply made up an impressive-sounding mythology to explain their hazy history and customs?

Well, we can all speculate and compare, but it's my poisition the Bible is true history. It speaks of real places, you know. Like Jericho? And the great kingdom described under the reign of Solomon has archaeological confirmation with many palaces being found, etc. So it's just evidence from these nomadic people in the wilderness during these 40 years. What is reasonable to expect to find at this late date?

We have reason to believe this occurred because we have evidence of the Jews in Egypt up until the Exodus, then a slight confirmation by Merenepth, then very consistent confirmation from Sishak's invasion through the Persian Period. All that history basically works and is noncontested. It's just this archaeological "dark period" that remains mysterious. A powerful Jewish nation with their own identity didn't just appear out of nowhere. They had to come from somewhere and their own records make a claim of where that was from. We're just making comparisons.

LG47

Vampyroteuthis · 04-20-2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

....When something even remotely agrees with the Bible's chronology, like the RC14 dating for Rehov.....

Can we see those graphs and cloud pics again? I just love them! You should do a power point presentation too. That would be even more fun! :devil1:

Larsguy47 · 04-20-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DJay

archaeological evidence of nomads

I read this and it's about when nomads settled into cities. It's not applicable.

Further, your Kenyon Jericho quote needs more context, that is, it does not specific which level at Jericho is under discussion. The 1550 BCE destruction level is not the LBIIA level she assigns to Joshua, which is specifically dated for the LBIIA occupation level she dates between 1350-1325BCE. She is not associating the 1550BCE destruction level with Joshua. But thanks for the post, this confirms RC14 dating was used here and thus RC14 dating harmonizes with her dating for the fall in 1350-1325 BCE for the Israelites.

Quote:

Quote:
Kathleen Kenyon's excavation in the 1950s redated it to around 1550 BC, a date that most archaeologists support.[7][8] In 1990, Bryant Wood critiqued Kenyon's work after her field notes became fully available. Observing ambiguities and relying on the only available carbon dating of the burn layer, which yielded a date of 1410 BC plus or minus 40 years, Wood dated the destruction to this carbon dating, confirming Garstang and the biblical chronology. Unfortunately, this carbon date was itself the result of faulty calibration. In 1995, Hendrik J. Bruins and Johannes van der Plicht used high-precision radiocarbon dating for eighteen samples from Jericho, including six samples of charred cereal grains from the burn layer, and overall dated the destruction to an average 1562 BC plus or minus 38 years.(Radiocarbon Vol. 37, Number 2, 1995.)[9][10] Kenyon's date of around 1550 BC is widely accepted based on this methodology of dating. Notably, many other Canaanite cities were destroyed around this time.

Thanks, again, for the links but none of them address findings of wandering people and evidence found in the wilderness where they had temporary settlements. Permanent settlements established by them that have been discovered don't count. I'm looking for bones found in ancient wilderness grave sites that they must have had. Thousands of bones found buried in the sand, that type of thing.

LG47

-Jay- · 04-20-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Archaeology of the Land of the Bible: 10,000-586 B.C.E. (or via: amazon.co.uk)
Amihai Mazar

I'll add an endorsement of this one. I've just started it, but it looks quite promising. It's also part of the Anchor Bible Series, which is an excellent series in and of itself.

regards,

NinJay

xaxxat · 04-20-2007, 01:17 PM

Uhm, why would the Messiah (LG47 variant) need archaeological evidence when he was supposedly there when this all happened?...

LG47, why don't you just look in the mirror and ask yourself?

:huh:

3DJay · 04-20-2007, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Link please? I know they are but they are tombs that have been sealed and air tight. Are you talking about remains found in shallow graves somewhere or in caves? BE SPECIFIC.

What're you talking about? Have you seriously never heard of plain old graves being dug up? Not even the guy burried in the ground with his horse and chariot, or the guy burried in his viking boat? Seriously?

A ‘Babylonian’ Grave from Megiddo’s Area F

Quote:

The burial offerings — jewellery (a ring and an agate bead), a glazed terracotta bottle and an ivory box — point to a female grave. The sophisticated imported Babylonian glazed bottle and the other luxury objects indicate that the grave was that of an affluent person. The foetal position of the deceased, which is similar to burials found in ceramic 'bathtub' coffins at Babylon (Reuther, 1926: Pls. 67-72), and the imported offerings, especially the glazed bottle with its parallels to Babylonian boffles, all point to a connection with Babylon. Stratigraphically, the grave is situated between an Iron II pit and a Late Roman wall. A more precise date can be inferred from the bottle and the glass seal. It seems that the burial can be dated safely to the late 7th or the early 6th century BCE.

Tel Beth-Shean: An Account of the Hebrew University Excavations

Quote:

The Middle Bronze Age II Town

Excavation in Area M revealed burial pits cut into the Early Bronze Age settlement levels. In each pit a child aged 8-12 was buried, laying on his side in a flexed position, next to a concentration of animal (goat or sheep) bones. Above the bodies, several pottery vessels were placed. Similar burial pits were dug in the same area by the University of Pennsylvania expedition, and additional such burials were found by us in our Area L.

Among the noteworthy finds of this period were a hematite cylinder seal in local Canaanite style, Hyksos style scarabs (several of them especially fine), bone inlays with geometric designs, alabaster vessels [Picture 4] , jewelry, and miniature pottery chariot wheels.

Predynastic Egyptian Man

Quote:

This man died more than five thousand years ago. The reconstruction of his grave-pit illustrates the early Egyptian custom of placing the body in a contracted position. Before mummification was developed around 2700 BC, bodies were placed in shallow desert graves, in direct contact with the sand. This meant that they frequently did not decay, because the hot dry sand absorbed the water that constitutes 75% by weight of the human body. Without moisture bacteria cannot breed and cause decay, and the body is preserved. This body has been remarkably well preserved, even down to the hair and toe- and finger-nails.

Even in later times, those who could not afford the cost of mummification were buried in a very simple fashion not unlike this man, although after the earliest phases of Egyptian culture the body was usually laid straight out. The excavation of Predynastic graves has provided most of the information we possess about the early stages of settlement in the Nile Valley. This body is surrounded by various kinds of grave-goods, all authentic items from graves of the Predynastic period (4000-3100 BC). The distribution of the objects is also typical, with jewellery near the head.

Quote:

Was that the Jewish custom to bury someone with jewelry?

Jatt

Quote:

The Scarab
Yossi Mizrachi
The scarab, made of bone, is decorated on its base with a pattern that appears seven times and consists of three concentric circles with a dot in their center (Fig. 4). Six patterns are arranged in pairs and the seventh pattern is at the end of the decorated area. A double line connects the center pair of patterns and thin lines attached to it connect to the other patterns. On either side of the two end pairs of patterns are incised triangles on the line that delineates the decorated area. This decorative pattern appears for the first time on elliptical seals from the First Intermediate period in Egypt and was rarely used in the Twelfth Dynasty. Its reappearance occurs on scarabs manufactured in the Land of Israel in Middle Bronze IIB, having been inspired by Egyptian glyptic art from the years 1750–1550 BCE. The scarab from Jatt should be ascribed to this period of time.

Close to the same period, if Jericho fell in 1550.
"WHERE NO ONE HAD YET BEEN LAID"

Quote:

p. 438

The Jews of Early Roman Palestine had a long tradition of prompt burial of the dead. Most funerals took place as soon as possible after death, and almost always on the same day. [10] As soon as death occurred, preparations began: the eyes of the deceased were closed, the corpse was washed with perfumes and ointments, its bodily orifices were stopped, and strips of cloth were wrapped tightly around the body--binding the jaw closed, holding the hand to the sides, and tying the feet together. [11] Thus prepared, the corpse was placed on a bier or in a coffin and carried out of town in a procession to the family tomb, usually a small rock-cut cave entered through a narrow opening that could be covered with a stone. [12] Upon arriving at the tomb, eulogies were spoken and the corpse was placed inside, either in a niche or on a shelf, along with items of jewelry or other personal effects of the deceased.

ARCHAEOLOGIST GABRIEL BARKAY has lectured in New Orleans on the Ketef Hinnom silver amulets:

Quote:

However, Barkay and his team discovered that some artifacts had been preserved in a bone repository in the tomb. When a family member died, he or she was placed on a burial bench in the tomb along with personal items such as vases and jewelry, Barkay explained.

Peace

Sauron · 04-20-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Blathering and usual nonsense. No evidence of millions of people wandering around for decades. No Exodus.

Burden of proof is on you.

RED DAVE

I see it's time for me to post this quotation again from The Bible Unearthed, since Messiah Larsguy has forgot it already. Gee; and it was only three weeks ago:

Quote:

According to the biblical account, the children of Israel wandered in the desert and mountains of the Sinai peninsula, moving around and camping in different places, for a full forty years. Even if the number of fleeing Israelites (given in the text as six hundred thousand) is wildly exaggerated or can be interpreted as representing smaller units of people, the text describes the survival of a great number of people under the most challenging conditions. Some archaeological trace of their generation-long wandering should be apparent. However, except for the Egyptian forts along the northern coast, not a single campsite or sign of occupation frm the time of Ramesses II and his immediate predecessors and successors has ever been identified in Sinai. And it has not been for lack of trying. Repeated archaeological surveys in all regions of the peninsula, including the mountainous area around the traditional site of Mount Sinai, near Saint Catherine's Monastery, have yielded only negative evidence: not even a single sherd, no structure, not a single house, no trace of an ancient encampment. One may argue that a relatively small band of wandering Israelites cannot be expected to leave material remains behind. But modern archaeological techniques are quite capable of tracing even the very meager remains of hunter-gatherers and pastoral nomads all over the world. Indeed, the archaeological record from the Sinai peninsula discloses evidence for pastoral activity in such eras as the third millennium BCE and the Hellenistic and Byzantine periods. There is simply no such evidence at the supposed time of the Exodus in the thirteen century BCE.

The conclusion -- that the Exodus did not happen at the time and in the manner described in the Bible -- seems irrefurtable when we examine the evidence at specific sites where the children of Israel were said to have camped for extended periods during their wandering in the desert (Numbers 33) and where some archaeological indication -- if present -- would almost certainly be found. According to the biblical narrative, the children of israel camped at Kadesh-barnea for thirty eight of the forty years of the wanderings. The general location of this place is clear from the description of the southern border of the land of Israel in Numbers 34. It has been identified by archaeologists with the large and well-watered oasis of Ein el-Qudeirat in eastern Sinai, on the border between modern Israel and Egypt. The name Kadesh was probably preserved over the centuries in the name of a nearly smaller spring called Ein Qadis. A small mound with the remains of a late Iron Age fort stands at the center of this oasis. Yet repeated excavations and surveys through the entire area have not provided even the slightest evidence for activity in the Late Bronze Age, not even a single sherd left by a tiny fleeing band of frightened refugees.

Ezion-geber is another place reported to be a camping place of the children of Israel. Its mention in other places in the Bible as a later port town on the northern tip of the Gulf of Aqaba has led to its identification by archaeologists at a mound located on the modern border between Israel and Jordan, halfway between the towns of Eilat and Aqaba. Excavations here in the yeras 1938-1940 revealed impressive Late Iron Age remains, but no trace whatsoever of Late Bronze occupation. From the long list of encampments in the wilderness, Kadesh-barnea and Ezion-geber are the only ones that can be safely identified, yet they revealed no trace of the wandering Israelites.

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04-20-2007, 01:17 PM	#68
xaxxat Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Space Station 33 Posts: 2,543	Uhm, why would the Messiah (LG47 variant) need archaeological evidence when he was supposedly there when this all happened?... LG47, why don't you just look in the mirror and ask yourself? :huh:

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