Clouseau

In his letters, Paul was not trying to make converts. He was trying to keep converts from returning to their previous state. In so doing, he reminded the ekklesia, not that Jesus had died; they would not have even been reading his letters had they not believed that. He reminded them, or perhaps informed them, of the full consequences of that death. Now that death was meaningless if Jesus was not perfect, because Jesus had to be the 'spotless Lamb' if it was to be effectual as a sacrifice. In order to be perfect, Jesus had to be tempted in every way as we are, being from birth every bit as susceptible to the trials as life as we are, with no advantages whatever. And that was, and remains, a basic Christian motivation, one that Paul was determined to stimulate in his beloved readers.

That is why Paul wrote 'born of a woman'. The function of the virgin birth was solely to identify Jesus through prophecy, not to confer any advantage to him. (The Roman Catholic teaching on Mary, which implies that Jesus had advantage from his mother, is false, if only for that reason.) Paul did not cite Jesus' miracles, or mention much of his ministry, to prove that Jesus was the Messiah. Neither did he run through the fulfilled OT prophecies in order to prove Jesus' identity. The Bereans had checked these out before conversion, but Paul had no need to do so for people who were already convinced.

dog-on

Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

The circumcision perversion came after the initial conversion. Since Paul is the apostle to the gentiles, which "previous state" would these people be reverting to?

angelo

[QUOTE=Clouseau;4791580]If there was a tradition of a virgin birth at the time of Paul's writings, you can bet your life on him writing about it. He was trying to convince the Hewbrews that this was the messiah they had been expecting all those centuries. Birth stories are always fanciful.
They are never historical. After all, no one waits outside a maternity ward for a great person to be born. An individual has first to become great; then tales presaging that future greatness begin to circulate around his or her origins. That happened in Jesus's case just as it did for other mythical figures of antiquity like Osiris, as an example.

Clouseau

Any state in which faith in the plenary sacrifice of Christ was absent.

dog-on

Were there other faiths that incorporated circumcision as part of their belief systems that were located in Galatia in what is now modern day Turkey and were not specifically Judaism, since, of course, Paul converted the gentiles?

Clouseau

Not to my knowledge.

dog-on

Here is a better question. How would someone who knew the "Jesus of History" story regard Paul's preaching in light of these gems:

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

or this:

But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one stroke of a letter in the law to be dropped.

I sincerely believe that the Hebrew scriptures and it's messiah where grafted onto Paul's Christ and were not part of the original theology preached by Paul.

Clouseau

As Paul himself wrote, Jesus fulfilled the Law, and all who are 'in Christ' have fulfilled the Law, and they are not under it. The Law still applies to those who choose to live under it, and they will be judged by it.

dog-on

I know what Paul said, my question is regarding the obvious fact that since the heavens and earth had not passed away, Paul would be making Jesus out to be a liar, if indeed he had reason to believe an actual Jesus said such words...

Clouseau

The Law still applies to those who choose to live under it, and they will be judged by it. It has not passed away.

'All who sin under the law will be judged by the law.' Rom 2:12 NIV