DCHindley

We might be talking past one another, but I was speaking of those blocks of text that constitute complexes relating to Jesus/Christ, not blocks of text about other matters that happen to be peppered with those almost random "of Jesus" "in Christ" etc phrases.

Right now we're cleaning up after Christmas eve dinner (turkey, my Catholic wife makes me do it, I swear), so I'll have to turn to the cases you mention sometime tomorrow afternoon before the Christmas day dinner (Honey Baked Ham, mmmm).

Later ...

DCH

hjalti

It would be fun to go through the points William O. Walker lists as evidences for interpolations and see how this suggestion would fare.

In his introduction he lists some works that have argued for various interpolations, and two scholars have suggested 11.23-26 as an interpolation. So they seem also to see something fishy going on in v.22-23.

spin

I was pointing out that you get no support regarding your ideas on anarthrous κυριος working from article use with θεος. The latter seems quite irregular.

We have been working on two uses of κυριος: a titular use ("my lord", "the lord Jesus Christ", etc) and a non-titular use (as in the Hebrew bible referring to god). The titular usage has been eliminated in the discussion while the non-titular is the fodder for discussion.

It may be that the use of article with θεος reflects some diachronic split, such that if you were around at the time you would know what motivated it. Then again it could be that different writers simply preferred the anarthrous form. It may be that there was some semantic difference implied with the anarthrous form of κυριος, but how would you test the claim? The Hebrew bible seems to use both forms to refer to the lord (of Israel).


spin

Steven Carr

According to Bart Ehrman 'A lot of scholars question whether 1 Cor. 11 contains the actual words of Jesus at his last meal.'

neilgodfrey

Till ApostateAbe et al can access a copy of Walker, my summary of the facts listed by Walker that demonstrate the need to be suspicious of interpolations in any ancient literature is available.

Classicists are particularly wary of the likelihood of interpolations in their texts. It is preposterous for Biblical scholars to insist that biblical texts should be approached a priori by different standards.

As for the "last supper" passage in 1 Corinthians 11, you can see additional scholarly arguments for the case that they are an interpolation. I have also summarized Winsome Munro's arguments.

Neil

show_no_mercy

Adjectives usually don't possess nouns, and in both cases it's an adjective (lord-like) that's describing a noun (supper/day). If your interpretation of Rev 1:10 is correct, then John 2:1 should read "the Third's Day". Why make an exception for κυριακη but not for τριτη?

I tried looking over the long weekend for instances of "lord-like" outside of Christian writings but I don't have access to a large library of Koine Greek writings. Perhaps someone else with those sort of resources could do the legwork


Authentic doesn't mean free from interpolations. 1 Thessalonians 2:16 is another interpolation in an "authentic" Pauline epistle as well as the references to a "Peter" (instead of Paul's usual "Cephas") in Galatians. There's no reason to think that Paul's letters maintained integrity from the time that they were written (assumed to be the 50s) to our first extant manuscripts (c. 200 CE) when there was an intense battle agains heresies inbetween. Especially when this battle was mainly fought by changing texts.

DCHindley

I do not know if I am getting myself across here.

Keyword	Paul	Redactor
QEOS (theos)	definite article (the God)	no def article (a god/divine)
KURIOS (kurios)	no def article (LORD)	definite article (the Lord)

Perhaps the problem is in what I have bracketed as the interpolations.

I noticed long ago that if I could resist the incredible urge to read the Christ theology as the key to the arguments, I could make much better sense out of the other stuff, virtually all of which is about justification of gentiles before God on the basis of faith rather than adoption of the covenants of circumcision. In fact, the augmentation suddenly becomes perfectly comprehensible and consists of relatively simple arguments, as compared to the extremely complex rhetorical strategies that have been proposed by socio-rhetorical critics to make sense of the text as it stands.

Well, let's take the first chapter of Romans. I have added the definite article within parentheses where it does not show up in the English translation. Sorry, no kurios in the original here. I also reworded "our Lord" to "the Lord of us" to emphasize a definite article exists there. The ET here (the RSV) does a pretty good job of not adding definite articles where they are not in the original, so the parts identified as redactions did not require any adjustments. If you think about it, the redactor is not talking about Greeks and barbarians as Paul was, but his addition is talking about the Jews who received wrath from God (I date him after the Jewish war).

Original

ROM 1:1a Paul, 1b - 7a [...]: 7b Grace to you and peace 7c [...]. 8a First, I thank my (the) God 8b [...] 8c for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. 9a For (the) God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the good news 9b [...], 9c that without ceasing I mention you always in my prayers, 10 asking that somehow by (the) God's will I may now at last succeed in coming to you. 11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you, 12 that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine. 13a I want you to know, brethren, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well 13b [...]. 14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish: 15 - 18 [...]. 19 For what can be known about (the) God is plain to them, because (the) God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew (the) God they did not honor him as (the) God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore (the) God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about (the) God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. 26 For this reason (the) God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge (the) God, (the) God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 - 31 [...]. 32 Though they know (the) God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.

Redactor

ROM 1:1b a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the good news of God 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the good news concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ the Lord of us, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, 6 including yourselves who are called to belong to Jesus Christ; 7a To all God's beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints 7c from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ 8c through Jesus Christ 9b of his Son

13b as among the rest of the Nations 15 so I am eager to preach the good news to you also who are in Rome. 16 For I am not ashamed of the good news: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "He who is righteous shall live through faith." (Habakuk 2:4) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth

29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters-of-God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless

Now the 1st chapter of 1 Corinthians. Note I put definite articles in the RSV translation in square brackets if not present in the Greek, mostly in the part I think was redacted, and again changed "our God" to "the god of us" to emphasize the presence of the definite article in the Greek, in the "Original" section. Yes, I am aware there is an anarthrous kurios. There are occasionally exceptions, but not many as a proportion of the whole.

Original

1CO 1:1a Paul, 1b [...], 1c and our brother Sosthenes, 2a To the church of (the) God which is at Corinth, 2b [...], 2c in every place both theirs ours: 3a Grace to you and peace 3b [...]. 4a I give thanks to (the) God always for you because of the grace of (the) God which was given you 4b [...], 5 that in every way you were enriched in him with all speech and all knowledge-- 6a even as the testimony 6b [...] 6c was confirmed among you-- 7a so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, 7b - 8 [...]. 9a (the) God is faithful, by whom you were called into fellowship 9b [...]. 10a I appeal to you, brethren, by the name 10b [...], 10c that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. 12a What I mean is that each one of you says, 12b "I surely belong to Paul," 12c "But I belong to Apollos," 12d "But I belong to Cephas," 12e - 13a [...] 13c Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius; 15 lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.) 17 - 18 [...]. 19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart." (Isa 29:14) 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not (the) God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of (the) God, the world did not know (the) God through wisdom, it pleased (the) God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 - 24 [...]. 25 For the foolishness of (the) God is wiser than men, and the weakness of (the) God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth; 27 but (the) God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, (the) God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, 28 (the) God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of (the) God. 30 [...]; 31 therefore, as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in [the] LORD." (Jer 9:24)

Redactor

1CO 1:1b called (to be) an apostle of Christ Jesus by [the] will of God 2b to those sanctified in Christ Jesus called to be saints together with all those who call on the name 2d of the Lord of us Jesus Christ 3b from God our Father and (the) Lord Jesus Christ 4b in Christ Jesus 6b to Christ 7b as you wait for the revealing of the Lord of us Jesus Christ; 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of the Lord of us Jesus Christ 9b of his Son, Jesus Christ the Lord of us 10b of the Lord of us Jesus Christ 12e "But I belong to Christ." 13a Is Christ divided? 13b Was Paul crucified for you? 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the good news, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ [the] power of God and [the] wisdom of God 30 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption

Finally, at long last, the 1st chapter of Galatians. Same markups as before. Again, yes I am aware that there is an anarthrous kurios.

Original

GAL 1:1a Paul, 1b [...], 2 and all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia: 3a Grace to you and peace 3b - 4a [...], 4b according to the will of the God and Father of us; 5 to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen. 1:6a I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you so graciously 6b [...] 6c and turning to a different (sort of) good news, 7a not that there is another (sort of) good news, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the (actual) good news 7b [...]. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you good news contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a good news contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. 10a Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of (the) God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant 10b [...]. 11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the good news which was preached by me is not man's good news. 12a For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation 12b [...]. 13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of (the) God violently and tried to destroy it; 14 and I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased (the) God, who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace, 16a to reveal 16b [...] 16c to me that I might declare <his> 16e “good news” among the Nations, I did not confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. 19a But I saw none of the other apostles except James 19b [...]. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before (the) God, I do not lie!) 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22a And I was still not known by sight to the churches 22b [...] 22c in Judea; 23 they only heard it said, "He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy." 24 And they glorified (the) God because of me.

Redactor

GAL 1:1b an apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and Father God, who raised him from the dead 3b from God our Father, and [the] Lord Jesus Christ, 4a who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age 6b through Christ 7b (about) the Christ 10b of Christ 12b of Jesus Christ 16b his Son <him (as)> per existing text 19b the Lord's brother 22b of Christ

I apologize for the length.

DCH

spin

No, no problem. I merely pointed out that with θεος that there are sufficient forms with and without the article. It seemed you were making a parallel between the anarthrous κυριος and θεος. Here I see it's the contrary for θεος.

I had a similar "revelation": only three uses of the non-titular κυριος were guaranteed references to Jesus. How could a writer use a term ambivalently for both god and Jesus especially when he wasn't a trinitarian? It would be a communication blunder. My approach was to see those three uses as being disruptive of Paul's theology and that each of them appeared to be interpolation. Yours was to find a marker for when the text was referring to god and when to Jesus. But if they involve redaction as per your analysis, there is no need for there to be a marker. The redactor's burden often overpowers the context and doesn't need the logic you might require.


spin

DCHindley

I take the differences to be due to be differences of style.

Paul loved his people's God, and his God also loved gentiles.

The Redactor loved Jesus, and called him Lord and Christ, but these words no longer serve as mere titles, but have become symbolic of an advanced redeemer theology associated with his death and "resurrection."

DCH