Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Avery · 04-19-2007, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Hoffman

I think its incredible that Jesus' biological father was God as John and Matt indicate (immaculate conception).

Hi Ted,

Just some terminology stuff. Immaculate conception is a term mostly associated with the RCC, perhaps some Orthodox too, that has to do with the birth of Mary. (One attempt to account for the sinless nature of Messiah, while fitting their mariology perspective. Established as official doctrine relatively recently.)

The most usual phrase for the birth of Jesus is 'virgin birth'.

Shalom,
Steven

Ted Hoffman · 05-02-2007, 05:42 AM

Quote:

The τραπεζα, far from being merely a potential household good, was actually so (stereo)typical of the moneychangers that they were sometimes called τραπεζιται.

Ben, do you have anything to support this?

Ben C Smith · 05-02-2007, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Hoffman

Ben, do you have anything to support this?

No, I was bluffing.

Just kidding.

Check the LSJ under τραπεζιτης; it is derived from τραπεζα, and it means banker or moneychanger. (I would gladly provide a link to the dictionary entry on Perseus, but it seems to be down right now.)

For example, Clement of Alexandria quotes a Christian proverb in Miscellanies 1.28: Γινεσθε δοκιμοι τραπεζιται, which translates to become approved moneychangers.

Ben.

Malachi151 · 05-02-2007, 06:54 AM

Quote:

If not, who was his father? Do we pick Joseph yet the same books say it was God?

Interestingly, the Gospel of Mark doesn't specify a father of Jesus at all.

Ted Hoffman · 05-02-2007, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

No, I was bluffing.

Just kidding.

Check the LSJ under τραπεζιτης; it is derived from τραπεζα, and it means banker or moneychanger. (I would gladly provide a link to the dictionary entry on Perseus, but it seems to be down right now.)

For example, Clement of Alexandria quotes a Christian proverb in Miscellanies 1.28: Γινεσθε δοκιμοι τραπεζιται, which translates to become approved moneychangers.

Ben.

Surely Ben, τραπεζα means a table. Is this an error on your part?

Ted Hoffman · 05-02-2007, 09:03 AM

I can't find anything on Ginesethe/Gineseqe though. Where am I going wrong?

Ted Hoffman · 05-02-2007, 09:31 AM

Just to be sure, this is Troughton's argument

Quote:

The furniture [Jesus overturns] identified specifically as tables (trapeza) and seats (kathedra), which are also potentially ‘household’ goods. However, they are not present in the Temple as such, but are technically in the Court of the Gentiles. They are present to assist the trading activities of their owners, and it is primarily this association that inspires Jesus’ action…It is their representative character as instruments facilitating wrong practices that provokes Jesus’ violent response. In this respect, Jesus and Nehemiah respond in kind.
Perhaps the most vivid similarity between the actions of Jesus and Nehemiah is the overturning of the tables. Both actions involve a direct, physical interaction with the equipment that furnished the ‘foreign’ presence. In each case, violence is enacted against inanimate objects rather than directly against people...the prohibition against carriage through the Temple is the likeliest source of allusion to Nehemiah. Specifically,…the linguistic connection through common use of the term skeuoj (‘vessels’). In the gospel accounts, it appears that Jesus endeavored to disrupt the carriage of certain objects through the Temple... NRSV translates skeuoj as ‘anything’ (thus, ‘he wouldn’t allow anything to be carried’), but the word is more properly rendered ‘vessel’...Nehemiah’s action in ejecting Tobiah and his ‘furniture’ (skeuh oikou Twbia) is complemented by his enterprise in restoring the ‘vessels [skeuoj] of the house of God’, along with the grain-offering and incense (Nehemiah 13.9)…Nehemiah was concerned about the ‘proper’ functioning of the Temple, including ensuring that the items necessary for proper worship were readily available. These included the ‘vessels’, but also items such as the incense and grain for offering. Nehemiah moved to restore these articles in order that worship could continue in the appropriate manner

Geoffrey Troughton, Echoes in the Temple? Jesus, Nehemiah and their Actions in the Temple, JBS 3/2 (April 2003), p.13-15 (available online at JBS website). For the linguistic connection of skeous(‘vessels’) between Mark and Nehemiah, Troughton refers to W.D. Davies and Dale C. Allison Jr., A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to Saint Matthew, Volume 3 (1997), p. 134.

Ben C Smith · 05-02-2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Hoffman

Surely Ben, τραπεζα means a table. Is this an error on your part?

The word τραπεζα means table, yes.

But the word τραπεζιτης, whose plural is τραπεζιται, means banker or money-changer; this word happens to be derived from τραπεζα.

This is what I wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben, italics added

Check the LSJ under τραπεζιτης; it is derived from τραπεζα, and it means banker or moneychanger.

Each it refers back to τραπεζιτης.

Quote:

I can't find anything on Ginesethe/Gineseqe though. Where am I going wrong?

It is the imperative of γιγνομαι, to become. In postclassical usage, the second gamma was often dropped; hence γινομαι.

Ben.

S.C.Carlson · 05-02-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

The word τραπεζα means table, yes.

But the word τραπεζιτης, whose plural is τραπεζιται, means banker or money-changer; this word happens to be derived from τραπεζα.

We see a similar sense development in the word "banker" from "banca," meaning "bench."

Stephen

andrewcriddle · 05-02-2007, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

The word τραπεζα means table, yes.

But the word τραπεζιτης, whose plural is τραπεζιται, means banker or money-changer; this word happens to be derived from τραπεζα.

Note Luke 19:23 where (in)to the bank is EPI TRAPEZAN

Andrew Criddle

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05-02-2007, 09:03 AM	#36
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	I can't find anything on Ginesethe/Gineseqe though. Where am I going wrong?

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