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Old 11-21-2011, 09:29 AM   #191
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Everyone who has disagreed with you has been very specific.

You are unclear on the meaning of postulate, and you seem to be unable to explain why you think a historical investigation should start with postulates about the conclusion.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:42 AM   #192
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and when we understand that different people are using different postulates then there is really no LOGICAL errors.
Not necessarily. Different postulates can entail different conclusions without logical errors, but from the mere fact that different postulates are being used, it does not follow that no logical errors are being committed.
aa5874 and J-D both appear to have identified a logical error in the statement of your postulates
No. I didn't say anything about Doug Shaver's postulates.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:44 AM   #193
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...I did not say that Doug Shaver's conclusion was wrong. I have expressed no view about Doug Shaver's conclusion. I said that the reasoning Doug Shaver gave in support of that conclusion was faulty....
J-D has CONCLUDED, not postulated, that Doug Shaver's CONCLUSION is logically FLAWED or based on FAULTY reasoning.
No, I did not give any evaluation of Doug Shaver's conclusion.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:50 AM   #194
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...

One list of postulates is presented at post #16

...

Another list was presented at Post #19, ...

And then at Post # 20 a third list of postulates was presented ...

Your claim that I "haven't identified any different postulates as most of us define the term" is demonstrably false. ...
You acknowledged previously that a comparative evaluation of alternative postulates is an essential part of the process. But you've never done one.
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The examination of our basic postulates in all theories of the history of christian origins reveals that both the HJ and the MJ are not conclusions from the evidence, but postulates / claims / hypotheses formulated from the evidence by the investigators.
No, it doesn't.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:51 AM   #195
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...

One list of postulates is presented at post #16

...

Another list was presented at Post #19, ...

And then at Post # 20 a third list of postulates was presented ...

Your claim that I "haven't identified any different postulates as most of us define the term" is demonstrably false. ...
You acknowledged previously that a comparative evaluation of alternative postulates is an essential part of the process. But you've never done one.
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The examination of our basic postulates in all theories of the history of christian origins reveals that both the HJ and the MJ are not conclusions from the evidence, but postulates / claims / hypotheses formulated from the evidence by the investigators.
No, it doesn't. However, if you insist that they are postulates then, on your own say-so, you should do a comparative evaluation of them.
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Old 11-21-2011, 01:29 PM   #196
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...I did not say that Doug Shaver's conclusion was wrong. I have expressed no view about Doug Shaver's conclusion. I said that the reasoning Doug Shaver gave in support of that conclusion was faulty....
J-D has CONCLUDED, not postulated, that Doug Shaver's CONCLUSION is logically FLAWED or based on FAULTY reasoning.
No, I did not give any evaluation of Doug Shaver's conclusion.
Please evaluate what you wrote before you post.

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...I said that the reasoning Doug Shaver gave in support of that conclusion was faulty....
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Old 11-21-2011, 03:41 PM   #197
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You have made clear that you intend the two descriptions to be exclusive possibilities but you have not made clear whether you also intend them to be exhaustive.
What I have proposed is a postulate reserved for the expression of an assessment of historical authenticity. In respect of this attribute the descriptions are exhaustive in the simple case.
If X and Y are exclusive and exhaustive possibilities, then the tabulation you should get might be something like this (instead of the hopelessly misconceived pig’s breakfast you produced):

(100%) X is definitely the case....................Y is definitely not the case (0%)
(95%) X is very highly likely to be the case....................There is little or no chance that Y is the case (5%)
(75%) X is probably the case....................Y is probably not the case (25%)
(55%) X is more likely than not to be the case....................It is more likely than not that Y is not the case (45%)
(50%) The chances that X is the case are about even....................The chances that Y is the case are about even (50%)
(45%) It is more likely than not that X is not the case....................Y is more likely than not to be the case (55%)
(25%) X is probably not the case....................Y is probably the case (75%)
(5%) There is little or no chance that X is the case....................Y is very highly likely to be the case (95%)
(0%) X is definitely not the case....................Y is definitely the case(100%)
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Old 11-21-2011, 03:59 PM   #198
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I gather that you are suggesting that, in the case of the documents under discussion, the most probable reason for attributing their authorship to a 'Paul' is that, in the context in which the attribution was made, there was a well-known 'Paul' whose name would be taken as adding weight to any document attributed to his authorship.

Is that what you are saying? If so, then I have not yet seen you give a reason why you think this explanation more probable than any alternatives.
Yes, that is what I'm saying. My reason for assessing its probability as I do is that is it known to have happened in several other cases. Documents are known to have been written by obscure people claiming to be famous people, and the actual existence of those famous people is in most cases uncontested. I regard that as sufficient to establish Paul's existence as the default inference from the existence of documents attributed to him. Any alternative hypothesis, I would argue, requires additional evidence sufficient to undermine the default, i.e. we need some positive reason to think it unlikely that Paul existed notwithstanding that somebody used his name to add credibility to his writings.

I don't deny that Paul could have been a figment of early Christian imagination, but I have yet to see, from anybody in this forum or anywhere else, a cogent argument taking that proposition from "it's possible" to "it's probable."
From examples I know of, there are a number of reasons why people put names on texts.

Sometimes it’s done with the intention of identifying the author accurately, and this includes both cases where the identification is accurate and cases where a misunderstanding or garbling in transmission has produced a false attribution. Sometimes it’s done to create false associations, such as giving the text an unmerited air of authority, and this includes both cases where the person named as author really exists (or existed) and cases where the person named never really existed but is the subject of a widespread accepted belief (or, at least, acceptance of the belief was sufficiently widespread before the attribution was made for the attribution to have some effect). Sometimes it’s done to disguise the identity of the author or some specific personal information (for example, gender). Sometimes it’s done as a literary conceit (as, for example, in the case of the description of part of the first Sherlock Holmes story as an extract from the reminiscences of Dr Watson, in which case nobody intended or expected any reader to suppose that the Dr Watson referred to was a real person or that anybody thought he was).

There may be others I haven’t thought of, but in any case in what you have written here so far I don’t see sufficient evaluation of alternatives to support a conclusion about what the most likely explanation is in this case.
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Old 11-21-2011, 04:41 PM   #199
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...I did not say that Doug Shaver's conclusion was wrong. I have expressed no view about Doug Shaver's conclusion. I said that the reasoning Doug Shaver gave in support of that conclusion was faulty....
J-D has CONCLUDED, not postulated, that Doug Shaver's CONCLUSION is logically FLAWED or based on FAULTY reasoning.
No, I did not give any evaluation of Doug Shaver's conclusion.
Please evaluate what you wrote before you post.

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...I said that the reasoning Doug Shaver gave in support of that conclusion was faulty....
I know what I wrote, and it wasn't the same as what you said I wrote.
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Old 11-21-2011, 05:05 PM   #200
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...I did not say that Doug Shaver's conclusion was wrong. I have expressed no view about Doug Shaver's conclusion. I said that the reasoning Doug Shaver gave in support of that conclusion was faulty....
J-D has CONCLUDED, not postulated, that Doug Shaver's CONCLUSION is logically FLAWED or based on FAULTY reasoning.
No, I did not give any evaluation of Doug Shaver's conclusion.
Please evaluate what you wrote before you post.

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Originally Posted by J-D
...I said that the reasoning Doug Shaver gave in support of that conclusion was faulty....
I know what I wrote, and it wasn't the same as what you said I wrote.
You are now denying what you wrote???
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